I'd just like a straight answer because last time mods made it seem as it was either a choice for night-ops or rooftops.. imho this is not really a choice at all as making a worthy successor to JA2 kinda means it needs both night-ops and rooftop acces for all its glory. (Yes I'm dramatizing a bit but I'm also super serial)
 

So, I know this question (request) was asked/made before, and I will probably look like a big crybaby but imo it seriously needs attention as mostly anything players are requesting is moddable, rooftops I'm guessing right now are not. But I'd like confirmation on this if possible.

Of course I also have to state what a great game you guys are making and although I really miss putting a sniper and spotter/backup on a roof and owning the fudge out of the enemy, I wouldn't mind this game not having it either if it was possible (without to much fuzz) to mod this in for the community though. Congrats on the update, will be spending quite some hours in it I'm sure.

As far as my experience ingame and in  JAFeditor with Unity goes, i don't see how it could come easily. Right now, the game works with a flat grid with tiles. You can only go on that grid, or be blocked by decoration/props on certain tiles. Roofs don't exist, you can only fake them with light blockers.
It may be possible to add "layers" of grid to simulate elevation above or under the floor, but currently it's very much like JA1/DG. It would require much work i fear, animations, AI, modular props... I'm not sure they have enough ressources to do that on top of all other core features yet to be implemented. I hope so, though.

I don't think making a second height level would be that technically difficult. Unity3d fully supports it.

What won't be that easy would be to add a new dimension to combat calculations properly. This is why most games prefer flat ground. Taking out the height calculations from ballistics makes things easy.

I didn´t knew that. It would be really bad not having the third dimension in the game. No alternative routes around, no danger of entering inferior positions.

The whole map looses a lot of tactical complexity of fighting for roof tops etc.

If there is no budget, there is no budget, but what will be the major criciticism to the game? It´s 2D with a nice artwork, but alle the buildings, all the topology is not much more than coloring the maps.

So if there is any chance of getting the third dimension into the game, it really should be done!

Some clarification of the JAF Team would be really interesting..

i think a real 3d environment with towers, high hills, big buildings, high bridges, ... , would have too much influence on the JA-like-gamestyle.

but on the other side, a flat 2d map with 3d models sounds a little boring and not up to time.

a step between may be a map with eg. four layers embedded in the 3d environment. it would be enough for tactical use and 3d feeling, but it wouldn't change the whole JA-gamestyle..

yepp, i totally agree! 4-5 Levels would be enough.

So maybe i am wrong here, but is it so complicated to implement that? You have coordinates, giving you the angle in height. With that angle you could calculate for different types of cover (as i saw them in unity: upper third open, middle open, lower third open) if an enemy can be seen behind. Or is there something needed you don´t need for 2D?

Are there any changes to all the textures/Props needed? Ok, you would need ropes, ladders, cables as additonal probs and an animation of climbing a ladder (Robbing rotated 90°? ;-), a rope and even ziplining (ok, not very important). But besides that?

I really think that it would be a mistake allow to play only in a flat world. What options do you have in the map design just with flat maps? I really hope that this makes it in the game, even when the campaign gets smaller due to that...

Hey Maddog,

it has been on my wishlist too. But be realistic. Which part of the game is finished at the moment? Even the first goal, combat, needs much more iterations and animation is something that needs to completely revisited. So additional work besides that would only be realistic, if we would have more time (or funding). Unity can do, but the whole cover, combat calculations and animations and also the map design - everyone in the team would have to work a month at least to get a rooftop-beta.

imho: Let us make ground combat really great so people enjoy and buy this game at the end of this year :o

Let's be honest. Without better AI, rooftop-fights were unfair in JA2 =)

Hey Archo,

Yeah, rooftop cheat made the game so easy, that it was almost up to the player to create some challenges.

You really think one month for rooftops? Sigh, ok. Maybe in the end there will be a point to make some hard decisions, what gets into the game and what is left out. In my humble opinion, levels and (bigger) campaigns will flourish due to the community and bigger campaigns could also be sold as an add on later (i am allready dreaming about a western adaptation). Graphics should be ok, but the game is not competing with Battlefield 17, so i totally agree with you that good in game mechanics, to set up a lot of interesting fights, are the main selling point for the game.

With the limitation to 2D, the topology of the map looses its function. To compensate for the lack strategies based on conquering higher positions, it gets even more important to set up a convincing battle system (interruptions, skill system, weapon system, spotting system, etc.).

...yeah and the personality of the mercs and the JA conversation style. That is the difference to other games and of course the genre mix (strategic layer missing in bia). So we know FC will focus on that. Perhaps strategic layer will go faster in development, as these are mainly code with a more or less simple representation layer in the map view. A view icons and blocks that move around doesn't require lots of art and animation but of course some nice UI which (I think) is already on the way.

Maddog, i thought about hills in the landscape ...  so one layer is about 2 meters, just to make it a little bit 3d without touching the gameplay too much. base layer = lvl. 2, mid layer = lvl. 3 (hill), high layer = lvl. 4 (high hills and rooftops :-) and a lower layer = lvl. 1 (trenches)

but if 3d elements are too complicated / time intense, the primary objective of the developers naturally should be, to make 2d combat perfect ... 

I keep on thinking about the height as a strategic layer in the game. A lot of movement and with that tactics in the map is based around conquering higher points to control the areas around it. These higher points are at the core of any defence strategy, because defenders cannot be attacked easily up there and can prevent attackers from crossing important zones. Therefore the attackers have to find a way around or they need to cope with a battle with unfortunate conditions on their side.

With these higher points a sniper gets his real value. Otherwise you have to allow for the kennedy-bullet to fly around obstacles in a 2D world or to accept that in most maps snipers don´t have any advantage because they can´t really shoot any further than normal weapons, due to obstacles in their way. A map allowing for long long distance shots needs to be quite empty...

I think the game would lose a lot, not having a fighting system using height. I really understand that resources are limited and that there is a lot on the nice to have list. But not having this will be awkward and will be the first criticism of whatever reviewer for the game.

So, i really don´t want to meh meh around here, i just wanted to emphasize that if its possible to shift any ressources to this topic, there are some other aspects coming to my mind which could be less developed and doing less damage to the final game.

Maybe there are possibilities to limit the resources needed and still getting height into the game. It doesn´t need to be perfect and totally flexible over all the probs, but it shouldn´t be completly missing.

Remember that rooftops affects more or less everything and thesefore requires a whole lot more than e.g. adding healing.  

it affects LoS, interrupts, shooting and movement animations, art assets, combat calculation systems, Cover system. ..and probably a whole lot more. Just saying that it's not that easy to add as it may seem. 

Ok, thanks for the clarification! I wasn´t thinking that you are not going to implement it without a good reason. So, hopefully it makes it in the game and if not it was not possible, because it would have demanded too much changes in the game. Would it be possible to leave that open to future modders than? I cannot imagine that you are able to open up the game so much, but if its possible, that would at least not binding the game to the ground for the future.

Or you start with the next campaign and some stuff left out of this version immediatly - which i think would be the best solution and this time i wouldn´t miss the kick starter campaign ;-)

From talking to the coders it is possible to open up for the code, but it requires a lot of work, so naturally not a pririty right now..but could be done at a later point. 

You mean cut some stuff out for the KS campaign version and make an expansion with additional features? 

Yeah, i mean the core of the game with a the round based fighting system is quite unique to the market right now, because a lot of competitors didn´t make it to a full complex game play or created strange hybrids between 3D-shooter and castrated round based strategy. 

And that core of in-game mechanics could be expanded in many different ways. Pricing is not totally my field of expertise, but a lot of revenue in the market is build around providing platforms and keeping the customer with new content there. And i think the chances to do that with JA game principles are very good. I am sure you have put much more than just some thoughts into that question so i really don´t believe to have any ideas you guys hadn´t so far, but in my opinion the platform is more important than the campaign. A lot of content will be produced by the community and additonal campaigns might be sold as an add-on. But to attract modders and to keep the community on the platform, the game needs to show its potential. So it might be more important to provide new features (like the great idea with the interruption clock, or possibilities to peak around corners, a complex interruption system) and show the potential of the game, than having a replica of JA2 with better graphics and a longer campaign. Why would anyone spend money on the expansion of a boring game?

There are so much add ons (=nice to have features):

• multiplayer: if the interruptions system works out, where is the problem to let control a player one side instead of an AI?
• longer campaignes: just go on with the story and add some more islands
• different backgrounds: if the close combat system works, why not making a western version? But this might require a lot of artwork and horses ;)

All this could be sold as add-ons. In this addons also new game principles might be added, but if a lot of features to have a interesting, diversified game play are not added in the first place, it´s dangerous that the user allready went on to the next game. And with that in mind limiting the game to 2D fighting looks dangerous to me.

But you know that better than i do and you will have a lot of pros and cons to prioritize different modules. So, good luck!

I don't think rooftops should be a concern as it was clearly statet in the Kickstarter campaign - Quote:
Single-Player
Tacticle Turn-Based Action, Including a fully integrated cover system and 3d tile system with multiple levels.
I can't imagine how someone whould write that and don't mean multiple levels of terrain may it natural or man-made. 

I have no doubt that multiple levels are a desired outcome by developers. I am also pretty sure that Jagged Alliance 2 players expect the climbing into roofs feature (maybe even more height levels). I want it too as it's part of the core JA2 experience (to me and to many and possible to many reviewers of the game).

This being said, I have yet to see a Kickstarter that delivers promises without compromises. My first Kickstarter was Dreamfall Chapters. They precisely stated:

"Will this game be released in episodes?
No, Dreamfall Chapters is NOT an episodic game, despite the title. You're pledging for a complete story, in a complete package, and the game you get on launch day is the FULL game with a beginning, a middle, and a definite end."
More than a year later the game returned into episodic format: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/redthread/dreamfall-chapters-the-longest-journey/posts/890605

Red Thread Games might just have run out of budget (at least out of time) and is needing more from individual episode sales to finish the game as they visioned...

A bit offtopic rant: not everyone has a 50 million funding on Kickstarter like say Star Citizen. Actually, for those 50 million raised their demo is way way crappier than JAF demo/beta. First off they went on and bought the most expensive Cryo engine they could and then snubbed at every backer who couldn't even load the demo. You have a crap PC they said, our game is too great for your eyes. Guess what? I bought myself recently an top of the market gaming rig. And I ran their demo. It's abysmal crap - a hangar, a ship or two you can click on to open and close doors and in then fly off around some rocks. We're talking here about a company who sits on the best resources money can buy and has yet to deliver something in a form of a game.

In comparison JAF is light years away, with both the core game evolving fast and more modding opportunities in place each release. 

The only thing that really is missing at this stage (and I was glad they thought of it) was the interface redesign to bring it closer to being a JA2 successor. If they tackle this right and give it that "JA2 feeling", a lot of people will fall in love with the game. 

So imho focus should be on interface and combat, followed by RPG element. BiA had better polish when it was release but not a drop of "JA2 feeling". This is where the fight is.

I do think that rooftops (preferable even more levels) should be somewhere on the priority list to get into the game, but not necessarily at launch. If it's possible to add later, I don't have a problem with that at all. Even if it doesn't make it in the game at all, I'm gonna be fine with it, as long as it feels like a JA game (which was lacking in BIA so much that I couldn't bring myself to play it through completely even once, I rather replayed JA2).
There are still a lot of things missing for that, but I think the game is on a good way.
 

For me, the priority list would be somewhat like this (priority as in must/should be in, not as in added in this order):

Way above everything else, absolute must have, otherwise I'm rather gonna keep playing JA2:
   Fun, fun, fun.
      - Give us tons of quirky characters, funny (or 
        otherwise interesting) quests etc.
      - Merc-personalities: mercs interact with each other, comment
        about NPCs, comment on what happens on the battlefield etc.

Quite a bit below that - gameplay (not necessarily in that order):
      - fixing of LOS-issues (all enemies in the sector shooting at me 
        doesn't leave me with a lot of options)
      - gradually improving AI
      - good interruption system (great stuff here on the forum, btw)
      - good cover system (seems like this still requires quite a bit of tweaking)
      - strategic level
      - good inventory system (coming with the UI overhaul I guess?)
      - tons of stuff to pick up in the sectors, more weapons, attachments etc.
      - we got less sectors and they are smaller, so (almost) every sector
        should have something interesting in it (quests, enemies, etc.)
      - multiple levels (could be added after release imho)

least important - Visuals/Sounds:
      - new UI (looking forward to that a lot)
      - more / better animations
      - more / better sounds (weather, weapons, etc.)

   Fine in it's current state by me, but i'm sure there's room for improvements 
      to satisfy other players, shouldn't be a priority imho, though:
      - graphical improvements

This list is by no means complete, I left out some obvious things like more mercs or a save system and I probably forgot some stuff.

Of course I'm talking strictly about what I think should be in the game. If some of these things can't fit into the budget at all, that's just the way it is. If some things are lower in priority for me, but very cheap to implement, I'm obviously fine with implementing those instead of 'more important' features as well, if that's necessary to finish the game within the budget.

It´s always risky to participate in the pre-financing of a project, but everything here looks honest and trustworthy. I have no doubts that the devs will make the best possible out of the game, especially because the more lucrative part lies in add-ons, especially if you are able to offer killer features like a multiplayer. Just imagine a complex SWAT-Map to play Counter strike against another freak from the forum.. 5€ a month?

I totally agree with chris: atmosphere + a good fighting system (i am glad that you like the ideas for the interruption system) are the major priority. I think there is little discussion about the atmosphere of JA2, but if you strip it naked to the fighting system, some progress is necessary. But i think with all the nice, simple ideas around here in the forum (watching around corners, using mirrors, etc.) having a real use in the game (camping AI, interruptions system) we get the fights JA2 "implied". And that was the reason for my doubts about not having a real 3 dimension in the fights (taking away the topological tactics in conquering a map), but this could be compensated with a lot of other "cool to use" stuff for the 2D fights.

Oh, I don't know...because JA2 had rooftops that could be used for fighting positions? If a game in 1999 featured them, why can't a game made in this modern era not have them? 

It's like Firaxis and their...remake...of X-COM all over again.

I don't like the sarcasm. I was speaking of the game we currently have and what it may become, not what it should be.

Anyway, a very simple answer to you : Budget

Keep in mind JAF has more or less a budget of 400000$. JA2 had probably several times that.

X-COM and XCOM is something different, the new one had a confortable budget, but made (bad?) gameplay choices.

Having a sniper and not being able to get them to a sniping position will be a real downer.. If this wont make it to release, there has to be an expansion later on that adds rooftops and heights!

Guess that depends on how well the game does, but of course something we'd like to have in the game.

That's good to hear. Hopefully the game will become a worthy successor and so a great success!

Wow! After backing I did not pay too much attention to the project. So I just came to this forum yesterday to take a look around.

Seeing that there are no roofs in the game is actually a real bummer for me as it was one of my primary tactics in JA 2 to get up there and then clear the area from a save place. 

Also I must admit that I think your ads are a little problematic then. You show footage from JA 2 where mercs are clearly positioned on rooftops. Then you cut to footage from JA Flashback. Of course you don´t show footage where people are standing on a roof in JA FB. But for me the way it is done suggests that the game mechanics itself are not different what we had at JA 2. But maybe that is only me.

Anyways I still hope the game will be a success and that a lot of the features that still have to be implementet can come later. I REALLY would love to play a Jagged Alliance game that is like the old ones.

@Mad Squ - old debate, no budget for it, nope; there's a long list of features that aren't yet in the game. My best advice would be to give the game a run and see if you like it as it is. 

Sure thing. I guess I am going to wait maybe 1 or 2 month and try it out then. I don´t regret to have spend money on a Jagged Alliance game. I just hope it will become more what it should be.

Well, we will see what the future brings.

The lack of rooftops really limits the game.  I know it is an older topic, but, as a fan, I just wanted to express my disappointment.  I hope we will see some iteration of it sooner rather than later.  Out of all the omissions, I think this one is the most limiting.  Otherwise good job on finally making a new Jagged Alliance game that feels like Jagged Alliance.    

Enjoy it for what it is. Combat is fun enough as it is.

• In JA1 you could blow a hole in a house roof with a mortar, then put another shell in through the hole. In JA2 you couldn't. 
• In JA1 you could swim and fight snakes with a knife. In JA2 you only muddle through water, no fighting.
• Don't get me started on differences between JA2 and JA2:UB. Or .. bleah.. JA2 and BIA.

In time there will be multi-level combat and other stuff. Not in JA:F 1.0,0, but who knows what future brings.

right !!!

view the Xenonauts project ... new 2d X-com  ... -

budject not big but game have 4 floors !

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/69341191/xenonauts - just 150k !! but big difference with this game !

That X-com game is looking really good. 

Looks nice. But not a fair comparison since they already developed 3 years before they even started the kickstarter.

So the total budeget is obviously different for Xenonauts, the same is true for JAF. We dont know, we cant compare.

By the way the goal for JAF shouldnt be just rooftops. The aim should be a full 3D enviroment. Hills and shit.

But we know this feature will at best take a while. So what i would love are rooftop levels like in Fallout2 or in JA Online. JA Online wasnt so much fun but the rooftop sectors were pretty cool.

I dont know maybe its possible with the editor.

in new build of ja2 1.13 now possible to collapse the roofs !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MG32dp0d-9A

==

ja2 with XBR scalling for better pic .. -

http://download.uoquint.ru/ja2/filters/JA2_2xXBRb.png

&

no scalling filter -

http://download.uoquint.ru/ja2/filters/JA2_2xSimple.png

======

In strategy heights are crucials.

JA2 is very simplistic fot that, JA Bia is really good for this.

I hope you can make one roof level at last for 3D combats in the future.

Have a good day.

Maybe you can make an expansion to support this feature ? I am willing to pay $ 30 to buy this expansion.

Have been talks in this forum about a possible 2nd kickstarter or crowfunding initiative where the community picks e.g 10 features out og 20 possible ..they all have a price and a time estimate and the campaign succeds at $1...so basically a stretch goal run.

Unsure if it's possible though. 

Well, I think it would be at least worth a try. Every way to improve the current game is worth a try. 

IF rooftops or multiple heights were implemented in the game, all of the Jagged alliance fans i know would buy this game. I think this would be a hard thing to add, but also make a lot of people accept JAF as a worthy candidate, and buy it.

edit: this in combination with the already implemented easy moddabiltiy (i know it will be reenabled soon) this game could be in top three of the JA-universe.

Depends on how much your asking for. As is you have a lot of bitter funders who feel a lot of fundimental functionality was left out of the game.

I didn´t knew that.but souds great www.etuicoquesamsung.com etuicoquesamsung.com