I just purchased this game today - even if I know that there are many bugs and its released in its alpha state. They released some updates, of course but there are still so much bugs / work left.

I just found this forum while looking for a new patch and I found the sad news that this project is completly dead - sadly it was from the beginning dead, due to the incredible bad decision to release this game in the very first alpha state to get more money to spend for development. Bad decision.

I dont know how long this forum are still online, so I hope one of the devs are reading this post and answer me. ( I hope the forum isn't shutdown tomorrow )

So I have a great idea: You can sell this game like before, but you can attach a Source Code license to it, so everybody who purchased this game is able to modify it by their own - or better, is able to compile it with bugfixes / patches / what ever deveolped by a community on eg github.

Of course, there is also another way to handle this: The source code (and the whole project) should be open source, everything you need is the resources which are only available when you buy the game. (There are some other games which uses this "system" - just google for it).

If you think this could be a problem because Unity need the resources in the "plain" format - just not compressed to the .resource files, you could upload it somewhere, where everyone who purchased the game is able to download it or something similar.

Why are am I saying this?

I´m a C/C++/C#/Java deveolper with much experience with Unity, Blender, Ogre, PhysX - so in the game development so this is a perfect hobby project where everybody are able to improve this game. And the best of it: It doesnt cost anything, many people could work on it and improve it.

Other developers may be although interested in this - so if you want to keep this game alive, you really should release the code to public. There are many licence forms out there, just pick the desired one. 

Since this game is coded with Unity - thus - C# , its very easy to code. You know whats the best part of it? Since its C#, and its compiled to MSIL, there are ways to disassemble this, which is sadly of course prohibited, thus not legally possible. And I guess not everything is coded in plain C#, parts of C or C++ is maybe used in some DLLs which are almost impossible to disassemble.

What do you think about it? Do you like this idea?

Is there any way we could convince you to release the project?

If you dont like the idea, you also could post the main idea on kickstarter if this is allowed, if you have colleced enough money, you could release the whole project. But - this isnt the proper way to keep things alive. 

That is a good idea. 

Nice idea but it won't happen because Thomas Lund already explained that they can't release the entire source code as parts of it are owned by the now insolvent bitComposer.

Hm I didnt read it somewhere but I guess its time to create a new absolutly free Jagged Alliance - Remake. I already thought there are some reasons to not release the source code - even in parts. But I think when the community is big enough and many deveolpers / designers are able to spend some time for this project, its going to happen and everybody should be able to play a remake which is absolutly that what everybody was expecting. Take Jagged Alliance 2 1.13 as example - everything is improved, new features and everything - due to a big community, everything should be possible.

The most important part are the resources - extracting them from the JAF files are prohibited, there are the Unity Store where maybe some parts are usable (like Shaders or weapons / items) but of course, not everything, maybe even the AI (I´m looking at Apex) or the GUI (NGUI, but with Unity 4.6 there are a new GUI System which looks okay) or Soundeffects / Textures what ever. The remake should be still coded with C# because Unity use it, and it should be developed with Unity of course. You get fast things working with Unity, have a great editor, and the most important part of it is the content pipleline is simply almost perfect. There are some missing animations of course, like jumping over a fence, climbing to the roof or something like that.Of course, if the project uses some modules like AI which was bought, these parts (the core) are not able to release, everybody who wants to compile the project needs to buy a licence of it, which complicates the idea and maybe destroys complete the project.

I guess I should create a new thread on The Bears Pit to wake up some deveolpers who are intereted in making a real Jagged Alliance Remake. If there are no one to help or thinks its a bad idea, the project is unable to manage for a single person. (The resources are killing me) So basically, we need plenty of ressources but only a few people for the programming. The source code it self with the whole project (maybe without ressources) should be licenced, so everybody is able to use it, but if they modify something, they need to release the code behind it, (and cant do stuff commercially).

Or something like that, thats just an idea.

What do you think?

I guess when I write an email to bitComposer (its a german company, and I´m german)  with the idea to sell the whole project to keep it alive under an open source licence, they say thats not going to happen or want €€€€€ for it which is impossible to collect.

Perhaps you didn't get it. T. Lund in Update 50:

bitComposer Insolvency 

December 3rd bC filed for insolvency procedure and that is very unfortunate. For JAF as a game it has no immediate consequences, as our license agreement covers this scenario. JAF will live on and be available for sale. 

What happens with the Jagged Alliance IP itself is up in the air, and we have no idea ourselves.

T. Lund cited by Shanga at Bear's Pit:

As far as I know Lund is very reserved when it comes to access to source code. I actually asked him about it:

14. How about addressing the issue of close source code that keeps off most of the coding talent by offering limited access to certain parts of it to select programmers? Under NDA, of course, if Flugente or the likes of him want to recode the UI for free or some other part of he code, give him access to the relevant code? No idea how that could work... he'll probably need UnityPro anyway, but heck, for a talented programmer I am willing to run a donation campaign to get him UnityPro if that's the case...


Quote:

Something to look at over time. Right now its very very tricky legally with bitComposer in insolvency/bankrupcy. Our license is nicely isolated and protected - but it doesnt include releasing the sources for everyone and anyone to start making Jagged games. And depending on if they go totally bankrupt or if someone else buys Jagged IP, then it might be possible. But it requires bitComposer to either arise from the ashes or JA to be bought out by a friendly entity. And then the new owners to be willing to amend licenses. So definitely no promises here, and yes - there are grey area where selected few can under NDA do it in our name. But timing right now legally is not good for rocking the boat too much.

 Hi! ScreenOfDeath

Google translite:

 We fully agree with you . Need the original source . We have decompilable main dll JAF. And changed to test the basic elements.

http://thepit.ja-galaxy-forum.com/index.php?t=msg&goto=339746&#msg_339746

Revival team

I just created a thread on the The Bears Pit, look at:

http://thepit.ja-galaxy-forum.com/index.php?t=msg&th=22576&goto=339776&#msg_339776

I´m switching to it, because this site could be down at anytime.

I hope I see you there, bye.

You got your heart in the right place, but one major hurdle you did not consider or willingly brushed aside: just like car's hazard lights are not "Park Anywhere" entitlement, you can't juse use "Open Source" argument for making a game based on someone else's IP/Trademark. That is, of course, if the idea is to make a different game. If the idea is to build upon existing Flashback framework, similar to 1.13, then it's a fair game. However, without source code, it is extremely tedious process of decompiling the dll and rewriting source. Doable? Yes. Although, due to framework itself being as basic as it is, many will argue it might be better just to do it from scratch. Which brings you back to the original point. Kind of like catch-21.

So that leaves two options. One is what Shanga is doing on Bear Pit. The other is make your own game, similar to what Danirey on Unity forums is doing. Personally, I'd go with two for many reasons. One of the main reason is Shanga himself. His "community" approach tends to mean Shanga's way, very Nicolae Ceausescu-esque of doing. Sometimes I wondered if he truly belives that he is THE community. And if you present any alternative point of view that differs from his narrow vision, you're shunned and degraded. Aside from that, what is more paramount, is that he thinks that Flashback framework is the best thing since sliced bread and is exactly what is needed for a perfect Jagged Alliance game. He would much rather build around and onto a flawed foundation rather than rebuild. Case in point, his weapon rebalance project. The idea of penalizing assault rifles for close range combat just because the game lacks proper mechanics for weapon handling is absurd. But to each his own, if he thinks that's fun to play then more power to him.

IMHO, making a video game is like making art. You don't compose a symphony or make a painting or write a novel to get rich, you do it because you love doing it. Although, in this day and age, sadly, that mentality is in the minority.

EDIT: I have nothing against Unity, but Epic Games announced today they are dropping subscriptions for their Unreal Engine 4.

Im aware that we or I get trouble when using the original name Jagged Alliance in a remake or a new game. The same happens with copyright / trademark material. But the game could called what ever we like to solve this issue.

If you think the main idea behind the game is in someway copyrighted or patent, I have to say this is not possible. Only techniques / algorithms are possible to patent or safe them with a copyright but ideas aren't effected by this. Small example: Think of all these 2D Jump 'n' Runs which shows so similar to the Super Mario ones - the clones or what ever are legal if they didnt use copyrighted material like textures / sounds / game title or something like that. So basically we have to get as much legal resources we could get and build a new Jagged Alliance under a new name maybe as remake of it.

And of course, there are no commercially toughts behind it. So no one is paid for working on this. I didn't started it yet, I just want to see how many people are ready to help. If there are enough people, we should start to code. If nobody wants to help, this project is not going to happen.

If you or somebody else have questions or want to say something, please post it on the The Bears Pit forum at:

http://thepit.ja-galaxy-forum.com/index.php?t=msg&th=22576&goto=339776

You don't know how long this forum exists, so please write comments there.

Nope, the concept behind the game is definately not copyrighted. Personally, I like the idea of starting from scratch, new characters, new setting, new backstory. Sounds too ambitious? You bet, but nothing beats having the freedom to take your vision any direction you want. Such an idea crossed my mind numerous times in the past, but other than few sketches, prototypes and schematics life always kinda got in the way. The amount of work is incredible for a single person.

As long as one doesn't go overboard with features, I would love to see a game that combines different elements from Jagged Alliance, X-Com, Commandos, Shadow Company, Silent Storm, Brigade E5/7.62, Fallout, and others.

As for BearPit, I choose not to participate there because of my personal opinion of Shanga. His self-righteous attitude and condescending demeanor is not something I wish to be associated with.

Im not as long in the scene as you and I dont know what happend between you and Shanga but I accept your decision to not going to the Bears Pit.

I just saw the demo of Danirey - its looks really really good, I don't know where he get all the resources
but thats the way to get things working.

The demo itself is also nice - with some small physic related issues but its really nice.

I dont think the basis should take too much time - so if we start the project, have some basic resources and changed them a the ready game state - we should get soon results.

The absolute basics should be done - like the camera system or shooting / (simple) pathfinding - unit stats etc. If they are ready, we could use Json or xml files for saving our items / weapon data.

What are you able to TheLARPKing? - Are you able to code / design parts or concepts of software? Or can you handle Blender - and do some nice animation (like roof climbing or something else) - so animations which arent usually in most soldier models? (When their are rigged and partially animated)

As I said in the other thread before, I didin*t start the project yet, if sxdemon still wants to help, and if you have time for it we would be 3 persons. My main part is going to code everything behind it. I just can handle Blender but I dont want to spend my time finding resources or get them gameready.

If there is no more interst there is maybe a good chance to join Danirey if this is possible, or
 I start the project without any help, I´m just thinking of this idea. ( Worst case scenario )

He's been at it for quite some time, but keep in mind, he's doing pretty much everything by himself, in his spare time, such as evenings and weekends. Most stuff he got free from the Asset Store, few modules such as Vectrocity, he ended up purchasing. Just goes to show you, where there's a will, there is a way. At the point he is at, it doesn't seem like he's ready for advanced stuff, like dynamic pathfinding, AI, event handling, etc., but props to him for sticking with it.

If there is something I can help with, I'm down. Although it seems our skills are similar, C/C++/C#. So finding an artist who can conceptualize everything visually would be great. I also know Unity pretty well. Camera control is easy to set up, I think I even have a working prototype of it in C# at the office, if you want, I can upload it to a cloud site and you can check it out. It is similar to VoxelFrog's, but less bloated and more streamlined towards JA-style game. Apex you already have, which is good, but again, it feels bloated in code and features. For a demo level/scene, I would recommend something similar to (Military Base). You can check it in action (YouTube). A bit pricey though, so if the idea is to not spend any money for now, just use it for reference/inspiration.

It's too bad many people moved on and left this forum, there was a bunch of people with programming backgrounds who used to hang out here frequently. Unless they still lurk quetly and infrequently. So if this forum stays up, they might even come across this thread.

One thing I would suggest though, as tempting as it is to just dive right into coding, it really helps to have a plan. It doesn't have to be elaborate, but it needs to be concise. Nothing sucks more than seeing hours of work go to waste.

If the artistic style for this game leans towards photo-realistic visuals as opposed to comic-book/fantasy, having something similar to this would be amazing SoldiersHD

This would be like a Merc Portrait, fully animated and varied emotional display based on current morale, fatigue, panic state, speaking state, etc.

Yes I know how long it takes to code when you are absolutle own your own.

The most time consuming part of it was the resources. You need to modfiy them
to your needs, animate them, give them textures and you need to import
everything into your project. (And it was plain C++ with different libraries,
without a game engine like Unity)

With Unity, everything speeds up. Look at the almost perfect Content pipeline.
Perfect. Just drag and drop the right files into your project explorer within Unity
and you are able to create prefabs of it. Easier than never.

Cool ! I really like to work with you.

I guess I should plan what should happen - draw a small OOA to see the main
parts of the core. The Military Base is a really good example - but its pricey.
But really good. Maybe they get it into the 24h deals or in the new level11 store.

I didn't want to play Flashback before - I tought they would fix many bugs and add content
within 6 months so the game should be more playable.

But... everybody know the results.
So maybe there are some people who wants to help with it when they see first steps of progress.

I just saw the SoldiersHD at youtube, but there are only dead links on youtube. It would be amazing,
but it also comsumes much GPU time for it. I know there are ways to handle this (LOD or dynamic / static batches).
I didnt find it on the Asset Store, - and I guess its only in a format where we can't add more animations we need.

So maybe parts of this could be also interesting:
https://www.assetstore.unity3d.com/en/#!/content/11292
 
- But to use as many libraries doesnt solve the problem.
Especially the need for licences - everybody who wants to develop with it needs a seperate licence.
I dont even know if its possible to code in a team with Unity - maybe we all need to get a licence
which costs 75$ per month - so this project is only doable by people willing to pay for it.
And at that point - its going to be a dead unsuppported project.

I´m going to write Unity about it, say that the project would be open source so there is no direct team - without commercials toughts behind it.

Its a good idea to use icons like that - but I prefer a (hidden) camera pointing to the face of the soldier, and render it to a texture. So we have live action of emotions. (Okay, this is a big step - we need facial emotins of it -> more work at riging / animating ) I dont know if render-to-texture is possible in the free edition of Unity 5.

I agree, having Unity Pro licenses for a project such as this can be costly. But I highly doubt they would wave the cost for anyone, even if there is no commercial thought behind the project. That's why I was planning on giving UE4 a go this weekend. They just announced they are dropping $19 per month subscription, so it is essentially free to use. Since the goal is not to make money with this project, but do it as a hobby, going with UE4 would make most sense. Having full access to source code and it being C++ is just icing on the cake.

Rendering merc faces in real time just seems like a costly process, in terms of computing power. Having pre-rendered, animated faces might be more viable and look better. Plus, I'm not too crazy about having equipment rendered on the portrait, such as helmets, gas masks, sunglasses, night vission goggles, etc.
When done properly, with a dynamic camera and scalable LOD models, you can zoom in on your mercs and see the equipment they are wearing in real time without bastardizing portraits. Sounds like renderer intensive proposal? Maybe. I'm a firm believer in the saying "Jack of all trades, master of none". If you try to make it cross platform (console/Mac/Linux/etc), which I have nothing against, you end up sacrificing fidelity for compatibility. I'd rather see the best freaking game that is Windows only, rather than it being playable on mobile devices and ends up like crap.

I wrote at the Bears Pit about the idea using Unreal 4, I also think its a good idea. Please take a look there.
But there are disadvantages like the small marketplace or community, it takes time to fill them up.

I don't think render to texture is a very expensive work, but it consumes cycles of course.
This could be the perfect solution for getting a acurate viewing of the face, with attachment or scarfs / wounds
at live time. With that system, it would be possible to show where you´ve got hit.
But of course, it need cycles to calculate it and thus performance.
( Maybe we could show a live view where the bullet was hit the merc )

One of the biggest problems are the performance if we do a dynamically destructible environment with a vonori algorithm,
( Apex from Nvidia does it ) so they are truely destroyable. We can build a precalculated fracture of it (also with Apex possible)
which improves the performance but get results which maybe looking not right.

LOD is automatically in Unreal I guess, or they use progressive meshs or what ever for it.
And you are right - we should concentrate us on the main platform Windows - or even Linux.

I'm still not convinced that rendering your equipment on the portrait is really all that useful past the learning phase. Imagine if you have a squad wearing Gas Masks or Camo paint for example, their portraits would all look the same, sort of like BIA. Unless you or maybe others have some unique or original ideas on how to do that, would be interested to hear more.

As for using the portrait to display damage/wounds, I guess having blood decals on the face might work when your merc is wounded, except how do you suggest scaling the damage? If the merc is critically wounded, would look kinda silly if his face looked like he was bathing in blood. Same thing for using it to show where they were hit or where the fire is coming from, not sure I understand how that would work with the face. If I understand you correctly, what you're proposing would be suited for first-person camera. Since you already have a tactical overview of the "battlefield" in birds-eye view, one can already see where the fire is coming from. And if someone takes limb damage, having proper animations would do the job. If you're thinking of having mini cutscenes, for different events, similar to what JA did with river snakes and lock-picking, those can get tiresome very fast. Should definately be optional.

For starters, I would suggest not overthinking the whole destructable environment and focus on the merc/player basics for now.

So I've decided to get back to working on my own JA-esque game. This weekend, I upgraded my code to latest Unity build to take advantage of new features. Right now, I have a basic camera and animations working. I didn't want to waste too much time on Unity NavMesh, so there is no movement yet. Next step is to get navigation and pathfinding working, link movement types and stances to animations, and get basic AI running.

W-A-S-D = camera movement, Q-E = rotate, Z-X = zoom, R-F = tilt, C = reset to default.
Middle mouse button = orbit, Shift+middle mouse = panning.

Escape = Quit.

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