Has this game been completely abandoned by devs or what's going on? No more updates or comments anywhere? No official news?

yes it has!

they are not making anymore money with it so they leave it to die. although it has been dead right from the start to be honest.

it going to be only a matter of time until they will shut down this forum as well i bet.

We don't know that for sure, but it looks like it. What we do know is that we (most likely) won't get any new features and that at least most of the devs have been pulled away from JAF and put on other projects or left the company (including the community manager, which is why nobody is answering the forums any more). I hope that they are still working on fixing the bugs and improving modding capabilities, but without any news for about a month and no update for iirc 2 months, I wouldn't count on it.

from where do you know that the community manager left?

For example from LinkedIn. Community manager left Full Control on December 2014. Same can be said for many core members who are credited in the game credits, but have now changed companies.

https://dk.linkedin.com/in/ajsorensen
"PR/Marketing/Community Manager
Full Control ApS
March 2013 – December 2014"
Also, for example: http://www.linkedin.com/pub/roman-graebsch/35/544/b8?trk=pub-pbmap, http://www.linkedin.com/pub/filip-pilebo/59/b51/303?trk=pub-pbmap

I´ve been waiting for a proper documentation for the editor to finally get started with making my levels. But since there is no support anymore i doubt there is coming one. I still don´t know how to make water borders the right way, and i don´t know little about the trigger scripts, except the 2 or 3 ones they showed over half a year ago.

It´s a shame... a new (another) battle song of mine is half finished, but i´m getting kind of blocked by the "dead game" issue. I don´t think they will tell us how to implement such a song, so it will be useless.

Well, 300k isn´t enough to make a game nowadays. Look at every company that has 300k or less to make a game, they all fail. You´ll need at least 1 million.

well it seems nobody is still working for Full Control.

Hmm sad to hear that

I see that many people are wondering about Full Control and the future of this game. For those who don't know yet, I will now provide the details to remove any speculations. Basically, FC is in financial trouble and mismanaged this entire project (details will follow):

Thomas Lund offering his office space for rent online: http://www.spiludvikling.dk/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=3439

A quick search on internet indicates that every member of the JAF production team is not working for FC anymore.

Moreover, a more thorough examination of the team members reveals that the game was actually produced by at most 4-5 people who actually have some game development experience. Shockingly, the large majority of the JAF development team was formed by a group of unpaid interns (mostly students) with no solid experience in game development.

Significant parts of the game were developed by unpaid interns, including but not limited to: large parts of level design, 3D modelling, and sound.

FC was fully aware that they shipped a subpar game. It is evident that all resources were put on developing Space Hulk instead of JAF. 

I hope that those who disputed FC's mismanagement and conning of consumers are now convinced of FC's deceipt. Thomas Lund basically misused JAF's brand name to attract money for his studio. Money that his company in normal conditions would never be able to gather.

This is why we can't have nice things. People have no responsibility. How unfortunate. I was hoping for some major updates on the game and on the map editor too. :-( 

Thomas Lund seems to be still in. At least his Likedin profile suggests that he is still working on the project.

https://dk.linkedin.com/pub/thomas-hentschel-lund/0/b0/3aa

Found another guy, Sebastian Warnez, who says that Flashback is one of his current projects. And here comes the good part - he is able to program.

http://dk.linkedin.com/in/swarnez

But they are both manager type of guys. I guess best hope at the moment would be that they manage the physical production and shipment of the game (the cardbox etc.).

Most likely the next step in development will come from the community.

A better instruction for the leveleditor would be a thing we/someone could try.

@ Scope112:

Any proof for "Shockingly, the large majority of the JAF development team was formed by a group of unpaid interns (mostly students) with no solid experience in game development"? Pretty much all the team members I found had at least some experience.
Even so - you can't have a ton of highly experienced people working on a low budget project since they usually ask for a lot of money. As long as the team members are talented and the team leaders are doing a good job, I don't necessarily see a big problem with that and if they were indeed unpaid, they should safe the project money if anything.
To me, the big problems with the game aren't with level design, 3D modelling or sound either. I think for the budget they had, they did a very decent job with those, so if a lot of interns were working on those, I think they did a good job with them.

You can't expect them to put resources they had for Space Hulk on JAF. They can't even do that legally. They had completely different money sources for both games. I highly doubt they pulled any resources from JAF for Space Hulk. If you have some proof for that accusation, I would be very interested in seeing that.

I agree with ChrisK - as I said in another thread (before having read this one) I'd be interested in some proof. I would be surprised if FC actively tried to con the public and divert funds to Space Hulk, but it seems to be a case of gross neglect and mismanagement from start to finish.

Do we even get the disks and t-shirts? :(

Nobody seems to know - FC had planned to use BitComposers' ressources/channels for shipping but since BC went banktrupt they have to come up with a new plan. But seeing how FC is struggling financially themselves at the moment, I'm afraid there is a big chance that we won't get any of the physical rewards.

Well, taking money and making a game that is not up to expectations is one thing, but taking money for t-shirts and DVDs and not delivering it, is sounds like plain theft. I'm really hoping that it's not the case. I gave $100, just to get the T-shirt too...

Regarding the interns... a quick LinkedIn search (reading recommendations and CVs) one can find out that the small JAF team (around 10 people) consisted of at least 5 unpaid interns. Also, some developers were sacked midway during development with interns taking over their major responsibilities (involving core game features). Let me give you a hint, why did the person who designed the UI instantly disappear...? By thoroughly examining people's career path one can find out these things. 

Furthermore, still today we can see that pledgers didn't receive what was advertised (t-shirts, and other bonuses), while FC actually received a premium for these bonuses. Moreover, besides many of the promised features (that were not delivered without any proper notification!), the CEO of FC heavily advertised that the JAF team consisted of producers with a lot of experience in game development. Even major titles were namedropped in order to make the promotion more convincing, while in reality the information presented is highly skewed. All these factors suggest advertising and gathering funds under false pretences. Anyone with a law background should know that this is a vast violation of consumer law.

Lastly, the game industry is a relatively small industry...... I will not say anything more publicly as this may negatively influence other people. 

scope what is your scope

Stop pawning off vague constructed scenarioes as facts, man(or woman). Nothing you have said or posted contain any real evidence, or indeed explain earlier claims. You do realise that in Denmark we have 1-2 months internships as part of the unemployment engagement programs(Yeah, the happiest county in the world has an unemployment issue as well). These can go on for longer, and are not neccesarily a measure of employee level or experience. The Danish gaming industry is indeed very small, and very overlooked in the cultural development funding area, so taking on interns is part of the proces. This does not in any way mean that they have been a majority for any stretch of time. Maybe you should leave the evidencegathering to people who don't rely on a public platform with little to no data verification? Suggesting that false advertising was part of the Kickstarter without any evidence but your own fabulations, is indeed quite a serious accuation, that maybe you should think heavily on before making again. 

This all smells a lot of people trying to justify to themselves why their investment didn't go as planned and why someone else is responsible for them investing in the first place.

It is just as silly as the guy over at the steam forums who claims that this was never supposed to be anything but a modding platform for Bearspit to get fat on, and never a complete game, based on nothing but a hypothetical question about future paid modding dlc. Pepople inject their own promises, theories, facts and expectations into anything to suit their own needs and opinions on the internet, and this entire charade has been no exception.

Stop making shit up, expecially if you have nothing to base it on.

Well, there is a long list of features and things that FC promised (or at the very least wanted to implement) that are not in the game. Core features that even the 20 year old first JA1 had. (In all fairness, they said rigth from the start that it won't be JA3 though). Remember how they wanted to catch the spirit of JA and the 80s? The dialogues and story seem to have been written by a 12 year old intern with no experience indeed. A radio station broadcasting music and updates on your progress? Different factions? A home base? Etc. etc. And does not even take into account how bad all the stuff that is in the game actually is.

As a consumer with no idea about the internal workings of the game industry (financing, development process, time) I was led to believe that FC was able to make a JA1 style game for 350.000 Dollars. Only afterwards they explained on more and more things that they can't implement them because they don't have enough money. Sure, nobody forced me to back the kickstarter and it was my decision how much money I would invest, but I feel badly misled.

Imagine a new upmarket restaurant opens in your city, advertising a 5-course-seafood-meal consisting of extraordinary new creations by an experienced head chef. In interviews and ads they tell you how brilliant the atmosphere is based on their super-professional staff and the elegant interior. They even have their own somelier! And right now if you book in advance for the opening and pay through their website (or Groupon, if you please), it's only 100 Euros!

But when you go there, you sit in a school canteen type restaurant, the waiters and chefs are students who couldn't care less and the food is low-quality run-of-the-mill. You'd feel cheated and very unhappy and would ask for your money back, wouldn't you?

While I can certainly agree that they could have run the campaign better, they are being held accounatble to every last bit of feedback they gave during the kickstarter. But everyone seems to have a different, and at times very specific idea of what JA:F should have been, and what it means to do a reboot prequel of the series. So many people seem to have their own personal lists of features, and if it is not met, the game is rubbish and a tarnish on the genre, completely disregarding the pitfalls and difficulties in the game making proces. This is part of the issue with the transparency of a kickstarter game. Because of the "investment"-feel to the entire idea, people expect to have a say in every decision, big and small, and many feel cheated when this isn't the case, which is in many ways ridiculous. Yeah, base management and research did not make it in. It was replaced by city management, militia training and resouce generation, because the other venue turned out not to be viable.

Do you put something like that up to a vote? Will all the people voting for the retention of the basemanagement understand that it will possibly come at the cost of advanced comabat mechanics, even when told? I sincerely doubt it, given the feedback the game has gotten since release and during development as well. 

What are core features, and are they the same for everyone? Feedback certainly does not suggest it, given that all lists seem to be different depending on who you ask. So who has the final list? How do you define Core features, and why is your definition better and more correct than the next guy?

FC were being somewhat modest in the beginning of the kickstarter, and people were screaming for them to be more ambitious and precise in all aspects, even though this is almost impossible in a project setting, and even moreso in the creative industry. Yet, the goal stayed the same, and the expectations built up. I could possibly quote the risks and challenges section from the KS page once again, that very much details what would be possible winthin the minimum framework. Yet I have done som many times, and people just brush it aside, because it does not suit their argumentation, or indeed definition of what core features are...

Your food analogy does not work, because this was not advertised as the greatest things since sliced bread in the JA series, peopled by cutting edge developers(because they rarely work in indie companies, especially not in small markets as Denmark), but a return to the turn-based action, with focus on solid gunplay and combat mechanics. Did they use the nostalgia and setting of the older games to boost their campaign? Most definitely. Would it be stupid not to in an effort to do a continuation of the series in a prequel using some of the personalities of the former games? Very much so..This was not a michelin reastaurant, and certainly wasn't advertised as such. Yet plenty have complained about the lack of michelin-quality food and atmosphere...  

People chose to believe what they believe when faced with advertising, and inject all sorts of ideas and expectations from little to no input. Yet, when they have the product in hand, and it is not up to snuff to them, they were misled, or the advertising was wrong/deceitful, and certainly, someone else is responsible...

Plenty of red flags were present from the onset, but most if not all were out in plain view and documented by the developers, because they knew it was a monumental task, and they knew both the kickstarter and the develoment would not be easy to both run and define, partially because they were no names. People had ample opportunity during the month of the kickstarter and many months of EA to properly research the title and the development, yet soo many reviews have been marred by "as a JA fan this was an insta buy for me, and this is not what i expected", with varying degrees of insults, calls for assorted firing or scamming accusations to follow.  

People outright refuse to acknowledge that the people responsible for investing/buying in an unfinished or indeed, not even initiated product, are the people themselves, based on how they perceive the pitch. You can't put that responsibility on the developer, nor try to justify your ill-conceived purchase as a result of false advertising/lying/scamming, because they put the cards on the table from the beginning. They simply cannot be held accountable for how people chose to interpret their project, because everyone has a different view, agenda, expectation etc. to inject into something.

So do your homework before you spend YOUR money and remember Sturgeon's law at all points.

@Tendoncutter

It's very unfortunate that you didn't even spend 10 minutes researching my claims before writing your uneducated post. LinkedIn CV's and recommendation letters are fabricated by myself, right? Please start doing your homework before using a sharp tongue. When you are not even willing to check up on my information presented, why do I need to present you with additional proof? The proof is there, you just need to dig a bit deeper...

I posted my findings here so that people who are sensible (unfortunately you appear to not belong to this group) can draw their own conclusions. Unfortunately, some people (like you) are blinded by FC's claims that you can't see the bigger picture. I suggest again you read THOROUGHLY between the lines in my previous post, perhaps then you can get it..... :) Good luck.

Sorry Tendoncutter, but I disagree with most things you've said. Particularly your last two paragraphs are wrong on so many levels. Claiming that a business cannot be held accountable for how the public perceives its product is one of the stupidest things I have heard in a long time.

False advertising - with malicious intent or not - is an important issue when it comes to consumer rights. Travel agents e.g. are often in trouble because their catalogues show pictures and make claims that are not (entirely) true. If your hotel is "next to the beach" but in reality you have to walk a mile and cross a busy main road every court in the world will rule that you are owed some compensation.

Doing additional research is of course useful and recommendable, but not always possible. Imagine the hotel mentioned above will only be finished one month before your holiday - you couldn't check Tripadvisor now. In fact, FC struggled to raise the money in the first place because people could only do very limited research (FC had nothing to show apart from promises and enthusiasm). Remember how Shanga attacked them ferociously for being snake oil salesmen until they won him over with their sweet talk?

And besides, for a functioning economy there has to be a certain amount of trust between buyers and sellers. On a sidenote, I find it quite ironic that you accuse people of not doing enough research on the Kickstarter project while not researching the claims that Scope112 made and still attacking him. 

Also, my restaurant analogy does work. You are the one who mentioned "Michelin" to suit your narrative to claim I compare FC to a AAA studio. I only spoke of a restaurant.

While there are core features that are indisputable for every item (e.g. a JA game must have turn-based combat and mercs with personalities and a car must have an engine and wheels), I agree that people prioritise features differently. Many players are complaining about the lack of roofs and doors - I don't. JA1 worked perfectly without roofs and I always found lockpicking really boring. On the other hand, the complete lack of a decent story, dialogues or atmosphere is something that bugs me in particular. And that was surely the easiest part to get right. What we have now is absolutely pathetic - like I said above, it feels like the game was written by a 12 year old. The lack of an energy system is also an undisputable core feature for a JA game that is missing. The list goes on and on.

Seeing that so many people are complaining about so many different things only proves that FC failed on several fronts. It's not like with the new Rise of the Triad where everyone was complaining about just one thing (checkpoints instead of savegames) and they eventually changed that.

The bottom line is, FC made a huge list of promises that they couldn't/didn't keep. Starting with the claim that they can make a working game for 350,00 USD. And that is a fact. We don't even have to argue about features - just look at the unplayable state the game was upon release. The very least a paying customer can expect is that a product works. And that is why many people feel cheated. Not because they didn't get a say in every tiny decision, as you claim. Good for you, if you don't feel cheated - I do.

I don't know, but I loved the Jagged 1. I loved the JA DL too, it had a cool map editor. JA 2 is awesome and JA Unfinished Business is also really cool. I liked a couple of the other JA type games, the Russian made, the German made, etc.

I don't know how much JA 1 did cost for the developers, but I doubt that $350.000 was not enough to make something like that.

The game was a catastrophy at the end. After a couple updates it got better, but never felt like a full game. I thought It keep getting updates and at the end, it can be a 7/10 or so. But the developers fled, the team disbanded and we (the funders) left behind? I'm not a billionaire and yet, I chipped in $100. That's a lot money. We got a half-game, not a game.

I'm not sure what to say. :(

Oh man this here is so sad. As FC made it on the kickstarter I was so happy and I liked these guys, because all they said and did in the dev diarys sounded so great and sympathetic. Now seeing that the FC office is empty and open for rent makes me sad, because it shows that all the work and all the comments here from the backers who wrote their asses off (to get a better game) were a waste of time. Also now it is clear that we will (maybe) never get a good new JA Game.

Fact is all the ideas in the kickstarter campaign were great and I guess FC was passioned and didn't wanted to rip off the backers but in the end its sad to say that FC wasn't able to handle this. Not with the small budget and also not with their own skills.

For me the result is I will never back a game again with such a small budget and unexperienced team. This project was maybe dead from the beginning budgetwise so I don't know if I should hate FC for this or if I should show respect because they tried to realize their dream project. And we all know when you try there is the possibility to fail. That doesn't mean that they wanted to rip off the backers. They wanted to follow their dream and failed in some ways.

Now I just hope that maybe in the near future JA will get the succesor that it deserves.

This is exactly my point. You pawn off a constructed scenario as facts, when it is nothing more than you looking at LinkedIn Cv's and recommendation and coming of with a conclusion based on that. Please tell me where I posed that you could fabricate LinkedIn CV's and recommendations. It's the self invested dot connection, nitwit. Stop acting stupid to miscredit my post.

Of course I checked on the source, this was not in any way what was contested, especially given my emphasis on the use of interns in the danish employment system. They had interns working on the game. Does this in any way explain or conclude how much they have done, how great of a role they had in decisions, or indeed in any way indicate that experienced full-time employees were not doing the lions share of the work? NO, it does not, Yet this is what you conclude and pawn off as facts and evidence for how the game was developed. This is clearly because it suits your narrative.

This is what I am contesting. Read what is written before blurting out nonsense about what I have and have not done. You're the one who announced:

For those who don't know yet, I will now provide the details to remove any speculations.

and your evidence is based on the fact that the CEO is renting out part of the office(no use wasting development money on empty chairs, yeah?), after announcing, that the team had been severely reduced, bundled with the "revelation" that they had interns working on the game. And then invoking the possiblity of legal actions against them, with vague suggestions of "reading between the lines"(of your own argumentation.....)

Maybe you should hold off on the Colombo audition for now..

@JayM

Apparently I do have to link the Risk and Challenges section again, because the things you harp on a about are exactly some of the elements they wrote specifically would be limited, should only the base budget be available. This is why your bloody analogy does not work, because you, like other completely disregard the warning labels posted on the project from the beginning, thus injecting your own ideals and promises into the game, to make it accountable.

So you didn't want the game that ended up only barely making it's goal? Well then you shouldn't have invested in it, because, believe it or not, that is a distinct possibility with every kickstarter project. And it was out there in plain view the entire time, which is why your false adverticing claims are complete BS. And for the record:

"Imagine a new upmarket restaurant opens in your city, advertising a 5-course-seafood-meal consisting of extraordinary new creations by an experienced head chef. In interviews and ads they tell you how brilliant the atmosphere is based on their super-professional staff and the elegant interior. They even have their own somelier"

This was what you wrote. This was not how JA:F was adverticed, especially considering how they made people aware of what the risks were in making the "restaurant". 

Once again you are injecting yourself and yours into the project. My analogy emrely extrapolated on yours, because this is basically what has been dominant in the feedback. That people didn't receive the michelin course they expected it to be, based on the fact that they'd dined at a similar restaurant, years ago. Although the owners are insisting that the new restaurant is not a michelin restaurant, because they wouldn't be able to afford doing that, people are still expecting a michelin course, despite a menu sticker reaffirming, that the course was never intended to be of michelin quality.

As for your barb, read answer to Scope.

You mention undeniable core features: Please. Find ten people and get them to write down a list of core features. They will not be similar...

As for the release: Was it premature? Yes, Was it possible to do it otherwise? I doubt it, as they would have done so. Do all games ship with bugs/issues? Yup. Was the game unplayable at launch. No, it was not. were there features left out at launch? Yup. Was th game unplayable at launch? No, it was not(I listed the last one twice for emphasis..)

It is perfectly fine to be disappointed in a game, in many ways, I am too. But stop pretending like you weren't aware of what you were getting into, both the entire KS concept and what limits it posed. You read the label, you heard the words. YOU decided to spend YOUR money, regardless of the possible pitfalls, which were listed as clearly as possible for a creative project, yet to be initiated. YOUR responsibility..

Maybe we were all better served with a failed kickstater. But it didn't. Deal with YOUR choice.

But above all. Stop pretending you know the facts, when it is just a contructed scenario based on different occurence you chose to build the case. This is why those bloody antivaxx'ers are making babies sick with preventably diseases. Venture what you will, but don't state stuff as facts you don't have.

Maybe Thomas Lund and Peter Molyneux were reading from the same manual??? I don't know about other backers, but I feel all warm and fuzzy knowing my money were used to support lifestyles a group of starving/homeless developers for 18 months, to give a bunch of kids an opportunity to learn Unity, to help pay the rent of a fancy developer office and support Copenhagen's real estate market. And after all that all I got is a lousy T-Shirt...err, what a second, T-Shirts weren't sent out yet.

The more this saga drags out, the more ridiculous this whole project appears in retrospect. Totally agree with restaurant analogy of JayM. As for team calling themselves fans, please, my old hamster was likely more of a fan than the lot of them. I bet there is a whole chapter in that manual that teaches you how to be a fan, just like how to make a janitor in your office a core-member of your production team.

Being paid for work is one thing, but abandoning a project without fixing an easy bug (female prone) just shows how devoted you really are. It's easy to say "those people hurt my feelings, so screw them, I ain't fixing shit." What shows character and makes people take notice is doing the opposite. Have a constructive dialogue with your customer base, concede the fact that mistakes were made and do your best to fix them. That's what a good leader does. Or have the testicular fortitude to say "sorry everyone, I'm busy with Space Hulk" and do the right thing and release the source code so some people can finish the job properly.

@Tendoncutter:

It seems that you are either a friend / family member connected to the FC people or someone who does not know a lot about business and law in the real world. If you would, you would understand among other things mentioned that KS has to write a disclaimer so they can not be held responsible for someone using their site and not keeping promises. Or maybe you just don't want to understand what I - and apparently many others - are trying to say and simply enjoy arguing over the internet.

I have nothing to gain by changing your opinion so we might as well leave it as it is. If you don't feel cheated and think the way things turned out are acceptable that's fine but please let me know your real life name so I can avoid ever entering a business relationship with you.

No hard feelings :)

Best post on here, i guess.... very sad story how this played out...

There´s a metaphor for you for what´s going on now:

The world will be hit by a meteor in 60 seconds. Everything is done for. Nobody can do anything about it anymore. But you can still see people arguing about who did let the meteor come through to earth. --> do something better with your time....

The game was a big hope for the JA franchise, but FC couldn´t do it. If you have invested a lot of money you can be pissed, but as stated before its a risk you take by yourselves. My personal opinion of FC has gone bad the last months. Not because they failed in common, but because they were not able to communicate with the community. Of course they communicated with shanga@bp, but i had the feeling that they didn´t even bother to take other forum suggestions into account. A forum that was compassionate and willing to help. (The biggest issue would be the release of an unfinished game...everybody said this would be the death of the game, FC ignored it as always, but the forum was right) There were so many people who wrote their asses off (a quote from somebody above), and FC couldn´t manage to cooperate with those suggestions and feedback. I have the feeling they just ignored 90% of it and just did their thing. That´s the most sad thing of all imo. I think FC missed the whole point of a kickstarter, and so failed the community.

They should have advertised: We want to make a sub-par game, that is kind of similar to JA, and we don´t want you to interfer with our development.

Why do i say this? Because the game was built very simple and odd from the beginning, so any itteration or expansion was a huge breakdown to the whole code (which they couldn´t do). See the interuption system or height levels.

There were so many examples of forum debates, that enraged over time, and FC didn´t even bother to comment one line to ease those waves. I mean, how hard is it? That was pure fuel for haters and trolls. I can read the new posts in 10 minutes and if there is something obvious i can react to it. [I have been called "captain obvious" before ^^] ... but hey, i guess none of the developers ever played the JA franchise for more than one hour, so... ill stop now.

I´m dissapointed and i guess many others are too, and i´m done with it now. I uninstalled the game and the editor and now am going over to good games. Again a word from FC maybe could have prevented this, but they don´t care imo, and they will care even less in the future [if any].

I personally like kickstarters, there are so many examples where a kickstarter was successful and pleased the backers. These KS´s were able to take community feedback and react to it properly.

Cu in the verse

Whats also really sad is the fact that here are so many cool Jagged Alliance fans who really know whats necessary for a great JA Game. All the passioned guys here from the forum connected to a dev studio which really can handle a JA Game would be so awesome. 

Overall its sad that the community breaks into pieces and that the massive great feedback here is maybe lost. All the good feedback must be kept together and the members here should stick together somehow for the next jagged alliance title. JAF is maybe dead but Jagged Alliance is alive. 

@shadow

Yes i dream of that, too. It can´t be that hard to take all the design and ideas from a very old game and wrap it up into a new engine. But i guess that´s too much to expect^^

...

There will be a successor of JA, but unfortunately it will be at least 10 years or so until another company gets his hands on it.

is is a business and it sucks for FC what happened, but we told them all they should not release the game. Sadly they could/would not here us. So here we are with the end of it.

Sad for all of us

I also feel particularly sorry for Shanga - he put his and BearsPit's good name on the line for FC and see how much heat he had to take because of them. In the beginning Shanga was opposed to FC. If they hadn't won him/BP over the game would probably not have been funded in the first place. Getting BP on board was surely a huge selling point for many backers (I had backed the game before that point already). I was not involved in the alpha/beta phase because of personal reasons at the time despite having had paid for alpha access, but I read now that most community input (another big selling point) had been ignored anyway.

The more I learn about FC, their business practice and how this project was handled the more shocked I am and the more I feel we've all been taken for a ride. I would just like to point out that people shouldn't hate the programmers/devs personally because in any business employees have to follow orders from above - whether they agree with their bosses' decisions or not.

I hope that the modders can finally turn the ship around, even if it will take another year or two but I'm on the fence if that is possible at all. FC won't/can't release the source code because it is owned by bitComposer and FC obviously doesn't have third party rights for it. But as far as I've been told most of the game's most glaring problems that need to be fixed (i.e. not adding new features but repairing the game and bringing it up to scratch) can't be done by the modders but only by the devs. I guess all we can do now is expect the worst and hope for the best.

Honestly don´t waste your hope..

This project is dead and gone. What irks me just "a bit" is how active they are with their Space Hulk license (second dlc for the second game), with active commenting in the forums, while letting this pile of sh*t lay dead here.

Sorry but besides all liking the team etc yaddayadda, this really is annoying.. and at least for me a point to not buy their games anymore.. not that they havent got enough money from me for a lifetime anyways...

Well the disc and the t-shirt shouldn't be "a risk". :-P

Heh, always the tired accusations of bias or covert employment when someone defends something...

Look, I'm not suggesting that people aren't allowed to be disappointed in what the game turned out to be. I am too. But my experience with the game has most certainly been somewhat appeased, by the fact that I kept the circumstances front and center the entire time, and attempted to manage my expectations accordingly. Kickstarter is often fueled by emotions, which can blind even the most rational patron. The developers did try to list the risks inherrent in a project like this, but many seem to forget that, and the predominant feedback has been that they expected a lot more than what ended up being offered, yet covered their ears when confronted by the framework they themselves agreed to.

What I do mind, however, is people bunching stuff together and pawning it off as facts, when there is little to suggest it is indeed facts. Such as the game being predominantly developed by unpaid interns, or that they chose to release the game because they deliberately wanted to ignore user feedback.

I totally get that, when left to their own devices, people will cobble together something to make sense of the situation, but given the amount of flak FC got for admitting that they gave their employees a week off because of a busted AC and a heatwave(during the summer vacation time, mind you), is it hard to blame them for keeping a low profile? At present, I honestly think people would scold The CEO for wasting time posting on the forum instead of fixing the prone bug, which I honestly doubt is as simple to fix as people are making it out to (because then they likely would have, anything else is irrational). I guess I just don't understand why people always seem to come up with irrational scenarios, when others make a lot more sense.

Do people honestly think that an indie developer would intentionally disregard the community, when it is quite obvious that their continued existence depends deeply on it? That makes absoultely no sense, so why even entertain that notion? 

I don't have any more answer than anyone else, but I can guarantee, that the rampant specualtion based on little to no evidence, has done more than its share of damage to the project, and in the end, the JA franchise. 

I'm sad as well for how it all turned out to be, but I honestly don't feel cheated, even though I backed a lot more than the majority, because I knew what I was getting into, and I've found enjoyment in what JA:F turned out to be, since I knew this was a distinct possibility. But I'm not exactly rushing to get back in-game, either..

Above all else though, I've grown tired of arguing with nametags on the internet for the past year, and I assume the feeling is mutual for many, not just here.

No mas.

Hi,

They said they aren't a "fire and forget" company a few weeks ago, and I think we should give them time. Right now their priority is to generate revenue, which seems to be working better with Space Hulk.

Let's wait and see, maybe we'll hear from them soon.

@JayM Full Control is able to release the source code as they own it. What they don't have is the Jagged Alliance license for a new game. But I don't mind the name of the IP if a game is like JA2 (even without 1.13 features) and polished (JAF has too many little things which annoy) fulfilled with a great story and merc personalities.

However, as long as Full Control survives the ordeal, it's not wise for them to release the source code. They keep building their engine further with new games. And this is one reason why I still hope they stay in business (the engine still has potential). Finding monetary support will be tougher now though as you cannot afford to fail on Kickstarters. There are especially a couple of decisions I think Thomas Lund shouldn't have made. 1) Publish the game way too early to ensure bad reviews which effects on sales (publishing 1.10 version would have been a lot of better). 2) Not fixing the current prone bug fastly. It's not good marketing of professionalism when new gamers notice this immediately if they create a female merc.

The engine is Unity, which is 99.9% separate from JAF. The source code mentioned relates to C# scripts which is compiled into a DLL when built.

Yeah I know Syrop, but I believe they re-use and expands the scripts for their new games. Thus I used the word engine. Maybe some other word would have fitted the description better.

Concerning this topic some information from Shanga at Bear's Pit:

As far as I know Lund is very reserved when it comes to access to source code. I actually asked him about it:

14. How about addressing the issue of close source code that keeps off most of the coding talent by offering limited access to certain parts of it to select programmers? Under NDA, of course, if Flugente or the likes of him want to recode the UI for free or some other part of he code, give him access to the relevant code? No idea how that could work... he'll probably need UnityPro anyway, but heck, for a talented programmer I am willing to run a donation campaign to get him UnityPro if that's the case...


Quote Lund:

Something to look at over time. Right now its very very tricky legally with bitComposer in insolvency/bankrupcy. Our license is nicely isolated and protected - but it doesnt include releasing the sources for everyone and anyone to start making Jagged games. And depending on if they go totally bankrupt or if someone else buys Jagged IP, then it might be possible. But it requires bitComposer to either arise from the ashes or JA to be bought out by a friendly entity. And then the new owners to be willing to amend licenses. So definitely no promises here, and yes - there are grey area where selected few can under NDA do it in our name. But timing right now legally is not good for rocking the boat too much.

 http://thepit.ja-galaxy-forum.com/index.php?t=msg&th=22508&goto=339392&#msg_339392

Hi all! We are from Revival team. We have a many ideas for modding JAF. But we can only doing a little changes. But we cant do much because have not access to JAF source. We are need to have more opportunities for modding to make JAF better.
To do this:
1. We are need access to Assets (export - import).
2. We are need to have full JAFPublicEditor and original JAF maps.
3. We are need to change/add animation, and our Scripts. 
4. We are need to  have example weapons/armors prefab. 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We can make JAF better together!!!!

Kind of like saying "we'll see" when asked "can we get some ice cream?". But just a polite way of saying No. Noone is talking about making their own Jagged Alliance games, anyone and everyone with any common sense knows there are laws/regulations against that. What people/modders want is being able to add features to existing code without having to hack the DLL. Especially since there is a lack of this mechanic in the design of the game modability. Things like functioning doors for example, spawning zones for player/npc, sector/map size, custom asset placements. Not even mentioning UI rework. And user made maps are already allowed, which I would guess is covered by bitComposer/FC license agreement, so any overhaul of the world map is not something that should be frowned upon legally speaking. Few things that could potentially be off limits are art/sound/music elements which were sourced externally, similar to 3rd party proprietary licenses. Easily replaced by people making a mod. Even if, for example, they licenced path finding part of the code, they could remove it entirely and people could rewrite their own and make it work. That's one of the strengths of Unity, it takes Object Oriented programming to another level in a way.

Hope dies last, as we say where I'm from ;)

I didn't realise that they were so active with Space Hulk - which is a slap in the face to all JAF backers, really. I understand that they earn more money from Space Hulk and they need to keep their company afloat - and if they have some dignity left they would take the funds they raised from SH to finally bring JAF up to scratch. But I doubt they'll do it as they can't even be bothered to take 10 minutes and post a message here to let people know what's going on.

I did consider buying SH Ascension, the game would really interest me. I've heard of people buying / wanting to buy that game in order to support FC to have more funds for JAF. Maybe that backfired as FC is now working on SH only.

But I won't give them any more of my money ever again. In fact, if they gave me my 100 Euros back I would take a day to rewrite all of JAFs dialogues for them so they don't resemble something a 14 year old did in his lunch break.

Oh, now it's 14 years old, have they grown up the whole troll fest time ? ;) That must be the legendary regeneration ability of the troll i guess...

The money juggling from one project to the other doesn't work like that i'm afraid. If you want to support FC, so they can prosperate and maybe give JA another go in the future (via a new project or maybe DLC/expansions for JAF), it may be an idea to buy Ascension, but it's a very indirect process, and you'd be good to have some influence to raise an audience for it and motivate FC to come back to the franchise. Current JAF development won't improve from SH sales :(

With all the devs gone there's hardly a chance that this game will be supported any longer. I guess that it is only a question of time until this board is going to be closed down too.

More money could improve the situation but I guess that on both sides (FC and the Community) all confidence is lost. For Mr. Lund I guess he's fed up with all this JA Stuff. I'm sure they tried their best and it resulted in a big failure. Well, and if it comes down to money everyone's going to safe their own butts first - that's natural. I work at a small company too, and I can imagine how Mr. Lund must feel after firing the core team. If I were him I wouldn't be motivated at all anymore and try to abandon the shit I produced.

Yeah, it's hard.. perhaps in a few years others might try.

But one thing disappoints me... they (or the community manger or anyone) should at least have said good bye to us.. didn't the community deserve this?

Yes thats it. Why is nobody here from FC to say something in clear words. And as a community manager its very sad that he hasn't wrote some words to say goodbye. Maybe they were all already so pissed about all this or they dont give a damn whats going on in the community.

So maybe mr. lund was passioned I don't know but when even the community manager leaves without words thats unprofessional and the community deserves a way better treatment. Sure game developing is a very hard business but I saw many good dev teams with like 5 working members and they make games that are beyond flashback. Also there is a good connection to the community every week.

And if they couldn't handle this ok thats the risk and can happen but whats unacceptable is the fact that they run away without words and leave this sinking boat. There were people who really believed in this project and now they throw it away like some old rubbish.

I will never buy something from FC again. 

@shadow86: Have a look at the other active thread on here. Apparently FC posted 5 days ago on their kickstarter page an update on shipping items. But they don't post on their official forum...

I'm surprised that FC doesn't realise that their behaviour is doing more damage than already has been done. I've had faith in them until a few weeks ago despite not being happy with the game. I've even started a supportive thread here recently (it's still only a few threads down the list) because I thought FC are taking so much stick that something positive would be nice for a change. But after disappointing me they did their best to piss me off (ironically, by not doing anything at all). And it seems to me that they've done this to a lot of people as I recognise many nicknames from the kickstarter period and the recent months, who all have been upbeat and postive or at the least fair and restrained in their criticism. Now even these people have lost patience.

I know that this is totally off topic, so forgive me.
I recently stumbled upon this one http://metroid2remake.blogspot.de/
That's a fan remake of an old game boy game but what is really impressive is that this game is FUN to play. It is done by a few people in their spare time and they made something worth playing for hours. What do we have? 16 Bit Graphics Sidescroller, cost no money at all, works great, doesnt crash and is FUN (yeah, Fun fun Fun) to play.. Wish they had 300.000 EUR cause they did great for taking nothing.

End off Topic

And agrees to Jay and Shadow. Why don't we deserve some clear words at all? ..
Perhaps with their community manager gone so was the login password for the forums *lol* *sarcasm*

I guess the community manager was pissed about us (the community) so he doesn´t care. Maybe (i personally, too) have reminded him one time too often of his mistakes (to post the news on the main page for example), and the fact, that he had no clue of whats going on, unless he pokes someone (which took a month at least). Such a mismanagement of FC is hard to believe.

I know i have rejected the game already, but i really like to give more cents to this subject because i have given a distinct amount of money to the project, and i think a good bye should be a least bit of respect to show for the people who paid the community manager´s job.

A word from a dev/T.Lund/the Community manger could have prevented this bad impression, but...do i have to go on?

Yes. If mr. lund or someone of FC would talk more to the community in true words about the actual situation than nobody would be so disappointed. Sure JAF is far away from the game that it should be but the real rage comes from the bad communication.

You can fail in a project but you can help to please the fans when you talk more about modding or if you say in clear words that FC is sorry. That is not such a big deal but for me it would be way more respectful than just run away. Sorry but the community was often very polite and respectful. In other communities they would rage about FC day and night. 

----Cross Post from the Steam Forums----
http://steamcommunity.com/app/256010/discussions/0/604941528466867599/#p12

I came across this while researching the kickstarter rewards:

http://www.twitch.tv/full_control/c/2327353

This is the moment the kickstarter hit 350k in funding.

2:15 minutes into the video

Tendoncutter asks a question which is read over the air, and the one developer says "I think you can pretty much reveil that Tendoncutter is my brother"

So thats something to consider.

----End of Cross Post----

I'm posting this here because I've read the paragraphs and paragraphs that hes written above about how we are trolls, we are biased and unfairly critizing the resulting game, the company, etc. It's a giant grain of salt to take with his above posts.

Well, he IS related to the developers, and he could easily update us on whats going on, get us details on physical rewards, rumors of interns doing the legwork, but instead he's here and on the Steam forums telling us we are trolls for having expectations about something we paid for.

I personally feel like he made this experience more sour then it maybe had to be. I think most of us just came here looking for answers. I (myself and others) didn't get my pitchfork out until I felt I needed something to defend myself with.

haha that's brilliant! And then he even had the cheek to deny it when I called him out. What an idiot. I hope he's happy that he has done even more damage to FC by stoking the fire with his ridiculous posts.

Hmm, where did Tendoncutter deny any relationship with the dev team ? All i could find was this sentence :
"Heh, always the tired accusations of bias or covert employment when someone defends something..."

By the way, he's right. Play the argumentation, not the man. His posts don't look ridiculous to me, they are pretty pertinent. You, insulting people, are looking ridiculous.

Saying it is a "tired accusation" when it is the truth is pretty much denying it to me. But if you disagree because of some semantics, feel free to do so. I would call it nitpicking but everyone is entitled to their opinion :)

I've countered his argumentation above one more than one instance. And after all he said and the way his behaviour harmed his brother's business/product/work, my personal opinion is that he is an idiot. If your personal opinion is that I am looking ridiculous because of that, that's fine. I don't have a problem with that.

I might be wrong, but I am under the strong impression that more people would agree with me than with Tendoncutter (or you) - not just on here but also on Steam.

You are definitely correct Jay M.  Most left on Steam  are laughing at this fool even harder now.  This JA:F release has played out like a bad soap  opera.

Could we please keep the bashing of each other to the Steam forum? I already unsubbed there because of it and would appreciate it, if I wouldn't have to do the same on the official forum. I would highly appreciate if we could keep discussions here on topic and I really don't see how Tendoncutter's relationships have anything to do with this topic and calling people names is never ok in my book, no matter what you think of them. If you don't agree with his arguments then bring counter arguments, but don't result to insults, please. We have enough of those on Steam and I for one am really tired of them.

To topic - FC being so active on the SH forums and not a single post here is indeed very bad and I am very disappointed because of it. I understand that they can't have someone constantly checking up on the forum since their community manager left and that they have to focus on Space Hulk to survive as a company, but not a single comment for months is inacceptable imho, especially since the tone here on these forums was quite plesant until recently. I don't see a reason to answer to every single thread, but when specific questions like bugfixing and physical goods are asked (directly like in other threads or indirectly like in this one), I think a short post shouldn't be too much to ask. Neither should checking up on the forum like once a week imho.

I'm not sure if you have read some of the previous posts but it doesnt look like bashing is exclusive to steam.  Given all the insults quite a few of us have had to endure from Tendoncutter over the past few months I think his relationships have quite a bit to do with the topic.  He completely glossed over all of the flaws of the game, calling all of the posters with negative opinions trolls, haters, and with Shanga's help truly fostered a lynch mob mentality when someone provided negative feedback.  Given that Thomas Lund in his pathetic note also referred to some as "rabid trolls" and that Tendoncutter has a brother who works for FC, I view him as somewhat of a de facto spokesperson for FC.  I find it hard to believe his brother is unaware of his behavior.

On another note they don not need to pay a moderator to monitor the forum continuously.  It only takes a minute or two to get on the forum, read the concerns, and type a 30 second post with an update.

I noticed way more lynch mob mentality the other way around, but that's just my impression and since I haven't read everything (I stopped a couple of weeks ago and even before that, I probably missed some things), I might be wrong, not to mention that none of us are really objective (how could we be), so everybody's impressions are going to vary of course.

In my opinion, the atmosphere here on this forum was ok, until this thread. The name-calling started with JayM earlier today and I would appreciate if everybody would stop / not start themselves. Arguments like your last comment are fine, but calling people idiots is unacceptable to me. If you feel like you are treated unfairly (I agree that calling people 'rabid trolls' was bad on several levels, but that was not Tendoncutter), by all means say so, but please stop with the insults. I can't speak for everything he ever wrote, but in this thread, Tendoncutter just argumented. He insulted nobody, so I really don't see any reason to insult him (never mind that I don't think you should do that just because someone else insulted you either, since there is no way that is going to result in anything good).

About him being a spokesperson - as long as the company doesn't make him one, I don't see why we should see him as one. Just because someone is related to someone in a company, doesn't make him/her a spokesperson for that company. If a relative of an executive of EA tells you that they just cancelled a game, EA is not responsible for that statement.
Apart from that, his relationship has nothing to do with his arguments that are quite valid in my opinion. Feel free to disagree and counter his arguments, but again - calling him an idiot is unacceptable in my opinion and doesn't help the discussion in any way. Not doing something like that is all I am asking of everyone here.

I didn't call him an idiot, I called him a fool.  They are 2 very different things with the latter being much less derogatory.  He is a relative of the company and was praising the merits of the game for months on the other board.  I can only speculate this was to help drive sales.  Then, to have the nuts to actually blame the consumers and backers in this thread telling us apparently he needs to list the "Risks and Challenges" section for the KS  campaign again.  As if none of us were aware of what were considered "core" features that would be in the game. I must have missed the disclosure that stated "This software is only supposed to provide the framework for everything which was outlined in our core features during the Kickstarter campaign.  All additional features that were listed as "must have" or "core" to the Kickstarter backers and future purchasers are dependent on future sales and modders completing the game.  If our framework gets poor reviews we will no longer support the game or add additional promised features.  We will not even be able to fix  bugs that were introduced to the game post launch.  Additionally, if sales are below expectations we may be unable to fullfill our obligations on the physical goods aspect of the project as well."

I guess I didnt see that part.  Dammit, I knew I should have paid a bit more attention to the details.

I would like to point out that while I maintain and stand by what I said, I agree that this thread should remain on topic and relevant, and my opinion of Tendoncutter should not be an issue here. He probably has the same opinion of me, which I don't have a problem with. I'm sorry if I inadvertently caused this very important thread to be off topic with a personal outburst and I will consider better before I post again.

PS: I absolutely agree with most of the things that SoulsandBlood said (mostly in bold) in his above post. I don't agree that Tendoncutter should be considered a "spokesperson" of the company though - FC has no control over what a family member posts on the internet.

@SoulsandBlood
I was talking about JayM's comment, not yours.

@JayM
Thank you for understanding what I was trying to say.

The Steam forum has become a place where I don't want to read any posts at all because they consist of a lot of direct or indirect personal attacks and wherever a new thread shows up, someone usually starts the cycle again at some point. I am probably quite a bit more sensitive to such things than most people because I was on the receiving end a couple of times in my life, but I would be surprised if anybody still felt comfortable there and I don't want this to happen here as well. At least here, I want to be able to discuss without personal attacks.

Yeah back to topic. Yeah back to nothing. Why do we talk here? FC is not interested in the community anymore. Even they are not able to write ONE comment to the situation here in the forum. It is clear now that they just wanted to make profit nothing more. I mean since the game is released and now that the sellings aren't good, what we all knew before because we told them not to release the game, FC completely left the area. 

Even if a game is not that good in sellings you have to keep up a good connection to the community. I can't tell in words how disappointed I am about FC! Sorry but no comment since weeks is a kick in the balls of all the JA Fans who believed in this project. 

Good Job FC!

And in what way are you related to FC?

I ask because I see you missed the point or just decided to only focus on someone calling someone you agree with an idiot on a public forum. 

If you don't see the conflict of interest, and you haven't been following the discussion for weeks, then maybe you don't really have anything to add to the conversation.

Now, I don't want you to precieve this a personal attack, because it's not. You made two posts about this so I would like to help clearify to avoid more posts about how it's not nice to offend people.

You've missed weeks of discussion so I understand you're behind/don't know whats going on, but basically FC staff and affiliates trying to lecture the community into how to behave is part of what got them into this mess.

It's been months of being pissed on while being told it's just raining.

Now I looked at the Space Hulk Ascension forum and gameplay. This seems to be a really good game. So I don´t get it why JAF is soo far behind. Ok maybe there is way more money in the space hulk project.

Also JAF looks like that they wanted to create a Jagged Alliance with the space hulk mechanics. That doesn´t really work when we look at JAF. Overall for FC its good that they could create a nice game. The sad parts are that it´s not JAF and that FC will never get any cent from me again.

@TheLARPKing:

Is there a minimum knowledge that allows you to post your opinion now? If we two started a competition on that, I am pretty sure I would win. If you read what I wrote, I said that I didn't read everything, not that I didn't follow anything at all. I've read everything here on the forum and everything FC ever wrote and I read every single thread on Steam completely until like a month ago. I just didn't see the point any more of following every thread once it's going off-topic, because that's what happens to every thread at some point because people rather fight than try to bring anything to the discussion, just what happens here right now. Instead of bringing an argument that helps the discussion, you decide to question wheather I should post here. You really want to start not allowing certain people to add to the conversation? Then what criteria are you going to base that on?

Really? You think I am related to FC because I posted that I'm annoyed by all the insulting going on? FYI - again, I don't see how that matters in any way and no, I am not. The only way I'm related to FC is that I spend $190 on JAF and pre-ordered SH. I already wrote why I think Tendoncutter's relationship to FC is not important to his arguments, so I am not going to get too much into it again. Yes, he might have an hightened interest in the game, but we all have that, if we still post about it. I don't really see how it matters why he has that interest. His arguments are valid or non-valid all the same. If you think they are not valid, then tell us why, make arguments against his. Fact is that Scope has no real proof for his accusations that most of the game was made by interns, just that a bunch of them worked on the game at some point, but not how much they added to the game. If you have proof that they did most of the work, by all means post that. I would be very interested in that kind of proof. Until then, those are just accusations without facts proofing them.

Okay so, you've also called me an idiot without saying the word, you haven't and wont read all the discussions. You're a month behind in the discussions on steam at least, and you don't understand the conflict of interest?

I'm asking how you're related to FC because this is exactly the kind of detracting nonsence Tendoncutter was (and has been doing for the pst month that you've been away) on the steam forums. He turned out to be related to the development team and thus was protecting his brothers hard work / employment.  - Noble, but out of place in a market setting, and should be dismissed.

Steam, a market place where this game is sold to potencial uninformed customers who maybe can't get to the information like what we are discussing  because of too many posts about how it's not nice to call people names over the internet.

So I'll redirect to you and suggest you reread my previous post above rather then repeat it again here.

On a side note, Scope's info about this game being made by interns makes reasonable sense if you actually just spend 10 minutes researching. Coupled with the 20-30 paragraphs tendoncutter wrote above and the way he jumped on the accusation is what matters.

Ofcourse we will only get proof from someone who worked in that office on that game, but without anyone left working on it, we are left to speculate using the info we have available to us (linked in CVs, old forum posts, videos etc.)
Also consider Denmark the country where this was developed has a hearty system for internmentship. It's entierly possible that they legally had 5-6 interns in the office working on projects for the game, simply because thats how it works down there and thats totally reasonable. 

The only reason anyone is even upset at the thought of interns is because when looking at the resulting quality of the game it is possible to believe that this game could have been worked on by a team of interns.

If having to read every single post on Steam is the requirement for being allowed an opinion on the matter, I hope you can proof that you read everything. Well, to be honest I don't care whether you think I should post here - I am going to post as much or as little as I want. Feel free to ignore what I am saying if you think my opinion is not valid because I don't read everything.

What I am saying is that whatever conflict of interest Tendoncutter might have doesn't matter in the least when it comes to his arguments. Either they are valid or they are not. When it comes to recommending the game to someone, he maybe should tell the person that he is related to someone on the team to let the person decide whether it matters, but this is not the case here. Whether he's related to the team has nothing to do with what he said here. It has nothing to do with whether his arguments are valid or not. That is all I am saying. Feel free to disagree.

Shadow stated as a fact that: "Shockingly, the large majority of the JAF development team was formed by a group of unpaid interns (mostly students) with no solid experience in game development" and "Significant parts of the game were developed by unpaid interns, including but not limited to: large parts of level design, 3D modelling, and sound.".
This is simply not a fact, despite being stated as one. We have no idea how much they actually added to the game. In my opinion, it is not right to state something as a fact, when it is none. I think it's not too much to ask to show some proof if you accuse someone of something. Again - feel free to disagree, but I hope you don't mind proofing your innocence in case someone does that to you at some point.

Good morning alltogether,

can you please stop the drama. This is the last thread of a dying forum and I don't want the world to see that we're in fact nothing better than the steam community.

Klartext: Reißt euch mal etwas zusammen oder müssen wir uns hier schon selbst zerfleischen?

If anyone wants to argue with me - please add dragonbrooklyn@hotmail.com on skype.

Regards

So, you are just covering your ears and saying "La-La I'm not listening!" ?

Otherwise you've said all of that twice now, and I've already addressed it in my previous post.

I have no idea what you want from me then. OK, unless someone actually wants to add something to the discussion, I am out for now.

Could anybody be so nice to post on the Steam Space Hulk forum, asking what's going on with JAF? I don't have a forum account and can't be bothered to set one up just for FC. I already posted on their Kickstarter page two days ago but haven't had a reply there. In all fairness, it was over the weekend and I would not expect them to look at their old Kickstarter page too often - but then they look and post there more often than here!

Maybe Tendoncutter could alert his brother to the fact that people have been demanding answers for weeks now. But then he didn't bother with helping the community so far (quite to the contrary!) and he seems to have disappeared ever since he was found out...

Not taking sides, just for general information:

He's Andreas' brother, who was doing PR for Flashback. As many know during the development, Andreas knew very little, if anything, about the intricate workings of the project and had to "poke" actual people involved, like Roman and others. I would be willing to bet Tendoncutter knew even less, he was likely just supporting his brother. So to say he's on FC's payroll would be a stretch. According to LinkedIn, Andreas is doing freelance stuff right now, which may or may not involve Space Hulk project.

As for whether or not Thomas Lund is aware of what is happening here, it would be naive to think he is not. He has said it himself, he feels personally hurt by disappointing response and backlash and therefor chooses to avoid subjecting himself to all this drama. Unprofesional and childish? Perhaps. But it is what it is.

Curious, how many things you have to say about what I have and have not written on steam, and how I have gone about it, yet have no presence on the platform...

Yes, I am related to a FORMER employee at FC, which I am sure is a world first when it comes to supporting a kickstarter project, right? Does this mean I am not entitled to engage in discussions of said project I backed, when everyone else is? That I have to sign a special contract detailing my alledged bias, when everyone else, bias or no(and lets be honest here, we all bring baggage and motives to these conversations) gets to voice their opinions anonomously, without repurcussion or futher considerations to bias? Why should the rules be any different for me, disqualifying my voice because of a relation to the company, when I backed the project with my own hard earned money, just as the rest of you have? Does this mean that I wasn't allowed to share the kickstarter updates either? Or indeed, tell someone I haven't met before about the game, without having to disclose my relation?

No one has directed what I should, or should not do, say or post, least of all FC. I, like most of you, invested my money in the kickstarter, and have been trying to protect my investment, by contesting wrongful, misleading or hateful feedback and opinions, many of which has been based on little to no game experience. I've done so in a respectful and balanced manner, at least to the point of reason, and I find the notion that I have attacked anyone here or on steam, to be foreign.

At the end of the kickstarter, it was clear that a positive community effort was needed in order to get the game to the point it needed to be, and the feedback given both at the kickstarter, the EA launch and the release, made this abundantly clear. As I've stated a couple of times, I've tried to focus on the positives and report what issues I've had with the tools available. This bs about glorifying the game beyond recognition, is a view contructed by the people who sought to divide the community into the poor diassatisfied customers, and the rabid, opinionsquashing fanboys, in order to suit their own agenda. NO ONE, has been exclusively positive, and in fact the vast majority of the people who had positive things to say about the game, had plenty of negatives as well. Yet all received the same label, from the people who "all came here because they wanted the game to succeed". 

Am I not allowed to protect my investment, when elements in the community actively seek to delvalue said investment?

People who are seeking information on the game, couldn't find it because threads were cluttered? Feel free to check again, who the instigators who continiously derailed and got threads locked are..There was never any campaign to squash negative criticism, and free reins were given to almost all who brought not the least bit of construtive criticism, unless they broke forum guidelines. Hell, even the guy who pirated the game and started a thread to warn off others remained unmoderated. Apparently, he is seeking a refund for false advertising, after buying the game on sale, and leaving a review where he details his piracy at release....go figure.

As I stated in my previous post, questioning someone's affiliation to the subject matter because they defend something, is dodging the issue, and opens up to fallatious ad hominem argumentation. This was not uncommon in the steam community either, because some of the most vocal detractors, did not bother to update themselves on the game, and thus lacked argumentation, resolving to name calling and inventing conspiracy theories instead, because someone contested their opiion in a public forum.. But hey, they are the champions of the little people, and have done so much to help the community, so let's continue to sing their praises. I also stated that I was tired of this dance altogether, which is why I haven't been to any of the forums recently, and probably won't in the future. There is just no competing with people with the urged to complain and the platform to do so without risk. I wonder if the above detractors have private profiles.. 

As for my alledged bias...My brother's fate in the company was decided before the release of the game. He hasn't worked there in quite a while. 

What was I protecting beyond my own investment?   

Have fun killing yours.

Thanks for the explanations Syrop & Tendoncutter. And by the way, nobody is killing his investment. Our investment is already dead and has started to smell.

I have also read that Thomas Lund does not want to check the forums because it hurts him. I have no idea if that is true but yes, it would be extremely unprofessional. I understand that he is in a very unpleasant situation personally. Some people go overboard with criticism, others can't be really taken serious for what they say but you still need to man up and face the music if you screw up. If the game had been the success we all had hoped for he surely wouldn't have had a problem basking in its glory. Public relations always go both ways.

If I delivered bad work I couldn't simply ignore the telephone when an upset client tries to get hold of me. I technically could of course but then he would sue me at some point. Or at the very least tell everyone he knows to avoid doing business with me. The latter is what is currently happening and if Thomas doesn't watch out I imagine the former may happen.

Seeing that he is away for the GDC until March 8 (see my other thread) I guess it is pointless to post here until then.

First of all,
@Syrop and @Tendoncutter thanks for your explanation as well.

As I mentioned earlier, I can imagine how Mr. Lund must feel.
But to tell the truth, what would happen if he apologizes? I would forgive him.
One honest word and he'd be forgiven and receives another chance. Anyone with me?

It's a bit sad to see that some people here don't understand the phrase 'read between the lines'. I recommend those that dispute my arguments to look up the definition of that phrase and read my post again. Perhaps then you understand what I am truly trying to tell you guys. Furthermore, without understanding what I actually meant, a 15 minute research on LinkedIn will give you a very accurate idea of the depth of involvement of the interns at FC.

Good luck.

@Tendoncutter

"This game is great, and it's faults and shortcomings should be ignored"
-Loving Father of Development Staff

"5 Stars!! If you don't like this game then you're a troll and your expectations are just unreasonable!"
-Protective Mother of the Development Staff

"Love the game. Truly a masterpiece, saying otherwise will just hurt my investment."
-Incognito Brother of Development Staff

If you don't see the ethical dilema with this kind of thing then all the power to you

I don't know if kicking the can down the road would make any difference at this point. And that's exactly what that would be if Thomas Lund or anyone from FC says "This project is not dead. We're still planning on revisiting it down the line." Which is basically what was said weeks ago. Nothing was said since then is likely because nothing was really done during this time. Does day by day progress on doing nothing really going to help anyone? Does saying "we will ship goods we promised as soon as we can" without dates and times would make a difference? Because that's what basically was said on Kickstarter comments. Right now, what's going to take to make things right is action. Actions need focus, attention and time. Time which FC is spending on Space Hulk because GameWorkshop is paying them for. JAF, being financed almost entirely by kickstarter it seems, has long since ran out of money. Aside from occasional and minimal revenue from Steam, which is likely going towards paying back private financing this project undertook. Bottom line, unless new financing incentivizes Thomas Lund to spend time on this game, it is not going to happen. One can hope and pray all they want, but chances are slim to none.

Yeah, it would be nice to get the stuff promised in a timely fashion, but we're dealing with some weird stuff here. I still haven't gotten my Steam free version of the game, the Humble Bundle version hasn't been fixed and rereleased yet, and it's been almost 2 months. WTF?

This was posted on RPG Codex by what I presume is the brains behind Xenonauts game, another game that had its share of ups and downs. Interesting take from someone speaking from experience. Helps put cash-grabbing allegations into perspective:

• If you play JA:F you'll find some enjoyable fundamental game systems, but the entire package is basically the minimum possible amount of work that could classify a "game". It becomes obvious with how the very first mission is presented to you - you get a little pop up box saying "go find the chopper" or something, and that's all the exposition you get. The thing is, I know exactly how much work it takes to reach the stage of having a playable game with all the basics in place - you're probably taking 70% of the development process right there.
• Problem is having a 70% complete game doesn't get you a score of 70 on Metacritic, more like 20. That's totally understandable, too - it's really the layers of polish that people notice and enjoy about a game, so a game that has no polish just isn't a very good game even though it *is* largely complete. It seems pretty obvious from where I'm standing that the dev team just ran out of money and had to ship a semi-finished product, and the game would have been significantly better had they had another 6-12 months to work on the stuff that was obviously still placeholder. It doesn't look like the game did that well on Early Access so I imagine they burned through the $350k pretty quickly (bear in mind ~10% of that goes to Kickstarter / failed pledges, and that Bitcomposer would likely have taken a share too) but the early access builds weren't developed enough to catch people's eye and ensure enough funding to fully finish the game.
• I've exchanged a couple of emails with Thomas and my understanding of the situation is that senior team members have invested their own money in the project and lost it, so if it was intended as a cash grab it failed miserably. From a personal point of view I was lucky with Xenonauts - we were one of the early games to take pre-access pre-orders, we were one of the first Kickstarters and we were one of the first releases on Steam Early Access. The people who got to the party even a month or two later may not have made anywhere near as much money in a more saturated marked, and honestly had Xenonauts taken $400k in pre-orders instead of $500k I suspect you could have knocked six months off production and 10-20 points off the game's Metascore. And for all my flaws as a game designer, I do have a financial background and I probably take the amount of cash in the bank far more seriously than most indie developers do.
• So it's probably tempting to see JA:F as a cheap conspiracy, but I think the truth is much sadder - both the dev team and the backers went into this with good intentions but both have lost out badly here, as there simply wasn't enough money sloshing around. Thing is, a lot of well-known dev teams probably also did Kickstarters for less than they actually needed but *did* get the Early Access money they needed, so whilst I do understand the criticism FC are coming in for here I don't think their model was that different from that of many other successful games.

Thanks for the post. Very interesting read.
So sad how everything went. Even more so since this was probably our last chance for a true JA successor. I really don't see anyone else do it in the future.

@Syrop

Thanks from me too. (btw. a link would be cool)

Thats pretty much the best Theory i have read about why things went the way they did with this game.

And if we look at it from a "cash grabing perspective" wouldnt it been the best (logic and "easy") way to just develop the game so far that it would sell to get cash?

The sad thing from my perspective is that there isnt so much missing to actualy make a good game out of JAF. But its clear that their are diffrent oppinons about the point of what is really missing and how much work that would be, no need to argue really.

Think about: fixing of the Bugs that are still ingame (about 5 + smaller ones), some more explosives, better balancing, 3 more translations, a couple more animations (unconscious state), portrait animation (JA2 style), some revising of the way the story is written, City moral, ways of fleeing the sectors for mercs and enemys, way of getting drunk, no automatic time start on the strategic map or an option for that, some small merc interactions "i dont work for you, you have ivan", some more possible ways to mod, an question that lets you decide to fight with your team instead of the militia, doorknobs, boxes that look open when opened, remembering of blood and bodys after reload, smaller steps for the camera and a nicer UI. Edit: + Trailer made into an intro.

(I probably missed one or two superimportant and yet easy to implement features, sorry for that.)

That all bugfree in the game and i guess it would be enough to call it a nice little indie game. So how long would it take to get there? Four more months fulltime work for a complette dev team? I dont know but i guess not extremly long.

Of course i left the big stuff out like possibility to fight with animals, fight side on side with milita, roofs, 3D shooting system, option to make trees lucent, building your own fortifications ingame and complete voice overs (+ more). Lets be halfway realistic the list is long enough.

Im not blaming this on anyone its just sad how it turned out in the end.

One more thing. In a way im remaining an optimist i think everythink is still open for JA as a series. Maybe there will be lots more halfgood attempts. Maybe a real community edition or two. Who knows?

Here you go dude. Link. About mid-page, post by Goldhawk.

Thanks again :)

Thanks for the link Syrop!

I don't think that anyone on here actually accused JAF of pulling a fast one - maybe on Steam, I didn't read everything there in the last few months. I think it is rather a case of FC setting unrealistic targets by getting their business plan horribly and unprofessionally wrong without any malicious intent. It is still something that they have to be held accountable for.

It would be interesting to know whether the devs had planned to put their own money into the project right from the start or only after they realised that they won't get the game done by a mile.