Hi Thomas, hello FullControl,

I'm another one who's concerned about a possible self-fulfilling prophecy.

What you have created with Flashback so far proves that you are definitely on the right track, and given enough time could make a new Jagged Alliance title worthy of the name. I'm sure you will be working hard over the next few weeks to make the most out of what's left of your budget.

But what if that's not enough? What if there are too many features missing in the release, if it's roughshod, not well thought-out or well balanced, thus sabotaging the entire game? If that were the case, Flashback would get bad reviews, and many players who were really looking forward to a new Jagged Alliance would (once again) be disappointed and wouldn't buy Flashback.

In turn, the income that would allow you to keep working on your and our vision would drop...

For example, you explained the issues and effort involved to implement a feature that would enable a second game layer with accessible roofs, and that the budget does not allow for this in the core game. Got it.

Nevertheless, it is already apparent that Flashback will receive a beating in the gamer press reviews and from many fans out there...

What could be done to neutralise this looming self-fulfilling prophecy?

We don't know the figures or the exact situation of Flashback, but I assume there is an excellent reason as to why the release date was brought forward to 21 October.

I'd like to suggest that you proactively communicate the following upfront, along with your very fair release price of €29.99:

“This is the core game. It's alright and it works. Together with all our backers, we created this after a hard-won battle on Kickstarter in May 2013. But you want more, and so do we!”

Kind of like: "This is the core game, now broaden tactical options and buff up the fancy stuff."

Probably you've been thinking about what comes next for some time.

I think it would be a really good idea to tell the many gamers out there what will be coming next, what your vision of an "Ultimate Jagged Alliance Flashback” looks like, and do so simultaneously with the release (also when handing review copies to the press, so that they can bear it in mind when testing and include that fact in their review).

To push this a possibility might be for you to do the release simultaneously with another small Kickstarter project with us backers – this time you'd have more material to show, you've established a reputation, and the amount wouldn't have to be so high, so it should be a lot easier. You can count me in if you go this route!

I have to admit I'am having these thoughts myself. I don't think JA titles are doomed, but BIA failed big and no one other than FC believed in this game. In the youtube comments you will find this FC statement:

A petition for us to do more development was made when we ran the Kickstarter and will be waste of time for you to run now. People back then voted that we only got minimum amount of money. It is not possible financially to do more development before release. Had we gotten double the money, we could do double the development. Very simple.

I don't think it is that simple. At first we backed for a complete game which is a successor and not only a JA spiritual successor. And the People backend only that low, because you only had a concept and are not yet a well known game dev studio. As Blitzlord explained, you proved to us and the world that you can build a JA2 successor. It is just not finished. There will be no additional funds after release with bad reviews. If you do a kickstarter or even a paypal collection, every backer who believes now, will jump in and help, if he/she exactly knows what will happen with the extra funds. If we are involved in the decision process.

The only thing you have to do now, to get more money is to be very transparent were we stand now in development and what will get with the release. A list of bugfixes has to be agreed on and a list of features, that you will add without extra funds in the future.

What we need than is a price point to missing / most wanted community features (selected with votes from you and the community) that will find a way into a kickstarter or paypal package. It is kind of desperate but the only way, we can lift this game to the glory, it should be. So it can receive incredible reviews and the best meta scores so that people begin to buy the game. Also a big percentage of the selled games should get into the further development community package. If anyone has a better idea, let us know.

Although i have not the feeling to be waiting on the deck of the titanic to hit the iceberg, i guess a valid solution from the marketing perspective would be another kickstarter for a well defined Add-on with high willingness to pay of the clients, like a multiplayer module. It´s easier to get some people to pledge for a whole new game experience, which multiplayer death match almost would be, than to pledge for rooftops. Backers get an early access to a rudimental multiplayer map, can kill each other and stay happy =). Or the money spend for the kickstarter becomes a discount for the monthly fee for the server. Or even a sequential development, with new content (maps, game principles like interruptions, new weapons, rooftops) being financed by the monthly fee for the allready rolled out multiplayer.

With that you seperate the discussion about addtional features from the actual game and you don´t give the customers the feeling to spent money for something not really finished. Otherwise another round of kickstarter could be the wrong signal to the market. A pending multiplayer on the contrary might serve as a motivation to buy the standalone game to get to know the game mechanics and to build up a character you might use in the multiplayer later on. Buying the standalone game now, gives a little discount for the add-on later. So starting this allready before the release would comunicate somehow, that the 30€ game is not end of pipe, there is a lot more to come. I am going to discuss that with a collegue focussed on pricing.

Besides i keep playing lottery ;-) But seriously! The game looks nice, not as complex as we hoped for, but it´s fun to play for some hours, enjoy some nostalgia and hopefully enough people will buy it, so that FC has an incentive to go on with it.

If you run another kickstarter project in order to keep up the development of JA:F I'm in! ;-)

I would also most probably back you if you ever tried to create a Jagged Alliance 3 project. However, you should be asking at least half a million and present a demo level of JA:F to try out. In addition, list what half a million lets you exactly to do. Other option is if bitComposer funds you; that's perfectly fine. But I want to see first where this game ends up with and how the base mechanism, AI, story and merc "relationships"/interaction comes together. Hopefully we see a memorable bad guy too that Deidranna+Elliot combo once was/is.

@Maddog

And a multiplayer is nice but all the money would go into this new project which doesn't make sense. AI, personality, story, fights ect. what others said, need to be fixed or in before.

I would also say bitcomposer could be a silent investor if we collect with paypal and get their money back with sales. A small reasonable amount would also protect their JA brand - it has to be 1+, medicore doesn't cut it.

you can't sell the game for 29,99 € when EA paid way more. It would be another slap in the face to the persons that supported the game

I also would ship in when another kickstarter is launched. As already mentionend there is a huge lack of transpirancy to JAF. I occasionally stumbled upon the kickstarter video on youtube trying to watch some older ja2 videos. So i got interested in the project. 

In addition: Everyone of whom i know they like the old JA titles was surprised to hear about JAF, so i assume there is a croud not appealed to yet. 

Then I tried to get some audio/visual information about a (interactive, audio/visual) game on the website as well as other video-platforms where i have found the dev diaries. They were interesting to watch and provided the oppurtunity to look at the game before buying/backing it. It wasnt much information due to the length of the episodes and there only was one every 1-2 months or so, but because im a fan of this ol JA titles (and beacuase i really think you can finally do it right) i backed this game. But even i did struggle with myself before doing so. (it felt like i havent seen the product from all sides right now)

In addition: If i wasnt a fan of the old series i probably would have waited for more info or updates.

But that was about it regarding information and transpirancy. The most news anouncments after that (after "dev diary 3") didn´t go into further detail for months (about game development). Except for the kickstarter video/s, there are just a small amount of gameplay videos or reviews to find and the forums seem to be almost helpless sometimes.

Trying to find information about the work in progress was/is hard. Noone on the forums really seems to know anything detailed about the current game status/problems/upcoming achievments due to this lack of tranpiracy and information. Im very happy that some people here on the forums take their time and give the fans of JAF something to read :). Actually im around the forum for a while, but never wrote anything. (but i must say i almost everytime agreed with you)

I also backed star citizen. They were (and still are) completely transparent from the beginning so i am confident with this game beeing a success. I know there are worlds in between the budget of Star Citizen and JAF, but is it so hard to take 10 questions from the forums every week or so, recording (quality is less important) the answers and load them up on youtube. Seems not to be such a big of a deal and the community has something to watch and people see and hear about the game every now and then. This way people know there is some kind of progress and you show you´re alive :). If you interact with the ones giving you money the right way, you can get even more money for another kickstarter, or Addon-Kickstarter. Sympathy is a big factor here.

Maybe you could post about the status, problems and progress of the game on a weekly basis... and the community will most likely understand whats going on and like/hype the game when one or more obsticle/s is/are resolved. 

The first people to know about the current status of development (after the devs of course) are the backers. They should know everything first because they are the ones hyping the game and spreading the word. 

Don´t get me wrong, I really like your work so far, but (regarding to the build i can play on steam) imo it needs a bit more (funding/coding/animating) to be a real success/or and not get negative first impression reviews from the media. 

Cheers Glettkin

No that is totally ok, because you paid the higher price for a EA Game to get the early access and to support the developers. Many EA Games do that. The money you pay more than the final price is the money that directly finances the game. As you said you paid the money to make this game possible (support) or even better not just to get the final product.

I have not played the latest release of the game, but for me, the previous release didn't feel like a real JA sequel.

Hope the team can implement that fascinating JA-atmosphere within this short time until release ....

I'd wait for another year just to get a real good game.

cu

Flinky

i backed JAF from kickstarter and paid a lot. But EA buyer from steam won't see that. You can be sure there will be a massive cryfest if the price is lower.

Let's not put the cart before the horse here and start preaching doom two months before set release date. Yes, there has been a huge gap in development updates (not in development per se) due to bloody Gamescon. Can't blame FC for trying to get more exposure - we have a lot of people outside the backers who claim they've heard of JA:F just by mistake. PR is a necessary evil.

..

On the other hand, they're moving in huge leaps. Not perfect, but huge. So bugs are normal to happen. And there will be fixes, I am sure. One main quality of these people at FC is their capacity to LISTEN to the players, gather feedback and act on it. This kind of open development has never taken place in JA history. My fingers are crossed, because it's something GOOD and it must work.

..

So far they've kept pretty close to their Milestone goals, I don't see why everyone is a panick all of a sudden. True, they needed to move to Octomber to properly clean out the bugs and reach Milestone 4 (that was in danger of running out of time). The only valid reason to postpone release would be if major bugs pop out and they would be unable to fix them in time. Let's hope not.

Guess Advanced Characters milestone will also bring more meat regarding the mercenaries and their bios, too.

..

Milestone Update 3 

Advanced Characters (Perks, Morale, Breath, Medical & Mechanics) 
Doors (Lockpicking, Breaching, Interaction) 
Mercenary tasks out of combat (Train militia, repair, healing,...) 

Milestone Update 4 

Advanced Enemies (Classes, Grenades, AI) 
Additional Equipment (Attachments, Goggles,...) 
Sector Upgrades 

Well.. as long as Shanga has faith, i´m still hopeful ;9

Still, I would like JA:F to respond to these thoughts as we all have one goal here. We just try to help and worry about the brand JA itself. You must have team discussions about our thoughts, the progress so far and idea what you do in future with this IP. Even if you disagree with us in certain aspects, it is just good to know what you think (transparency). It has been such a ride so far and every dev diary got better and more interesting - more of that stuff + additional info about progress and help from the community would be nice. When I think about this, I would have loved a ticket system where you can collect all the bugs and suggestions, have votes and mark double entries. So we would have been better informed on what is a bug and what is a design decision. Fair enough, you answered every question in the forum, which is fine.

2 months? That's sounds way too early. As far as I see, the game is getting better, but not that fast, needs a lot of fixes and updates. Items, fights, gameplay, etc. I'd say wait another 5-6 or even more months if necessary. 

Yes, but what exactly is the question you want them to respond to? Why the don't postpone release one more year? Cause they can't afford it. People don't live on air, they need to be paid salaries, rent for offices is due, taxes, etc. Game development isn't spare time modding. I bet even that Octomber delay put a serious dent in someone's finances.

They can only do their best to fix every bug and have all the core features ready. Instead of worrying pointlessly about WHATIFs maybe us, the community, could try and think harder about what that core is, drop all the fluff we dream about and press on getting those features in game so the end result is something we can work with.

Wasting time worrying about doomsday helps nobody. Nada. Zero. 

It is never wasting time to communicate with your community. And of couse we know, that money is tight. That is why I don't ask a specific question but would like to know, how FC responds to his worried sheeps who put effort in texting, beta testing and thinking about this kickstarter a lot. If you would like a question, it could be: What if you plan for the next 30 days, how can we help you? 

If their answer is like yours, putting together a squeezed list of bugs and feature that come in, it is a vision/plan I would like to know exactly. If there are any other thoughts (bitcomposer, kickstarter) I would like to know. Also if one could invest and get a percentage of the sales later, this could be a solution. Hostestly, I am not the boss of a cool gaming company so I expect they have a better plan or the game is finished soon. No doomsday ever, if there is a perspective on what will come after the release, other then vacation for the team, because they will be exhausted as we push them to get a better game :p

Actually, that's not a bad idea. There should be list of core elements, that the majority would agree are essential. Whether or not it makes it into Flashback is irrelevent, who knows, maybe it can be used for future JA games. For starters, what should a character be able to do:

• Stand, crouch, go prone.
• Hold/Aim/Holster a weapon.
• Move (run/walk/crawl) while in any of those stances.
• Move backwards and sideways.
• "Try" to move silently/stealthy.
• Climb/jump over obstacles.
• Take cover behind objects.
• Drag/Carry another dead/wounded/unconcious character.

Secondary or non-essential:

• Climb ropes/ladders/walls/etc.
• Hide in/behind objects.
• Hide dead bodies.
• Sit on chairs, lie on beds.
• Eat, drink, sleep.

This would be the basis for every Merc/NPC/Enemy of the game, although physical attributes would determine how well one does it.

It would be amazing to have random idle animations, depending on character's inventory or object's close by. Like if someone is sitting on the sofa and has a TV nearby, idle animation would be changing channels. Or if an enemy has a portable radio, they would listen to that and be distracted, giving you a chance to sneak up on them.

Agreed on the plan thing, I've always said - stop doing trial & error. The process would be easier if they'd properly pitch a few ideas BEFORE working them into the game and finding out they don't work.

Dunno if that's feasible, but on a tight deadline you can't afford many screw-ups, they tend to pass onto the finished product. Oh well...

Imho alpha backers haven't yet been properly used. FC responded well, but they had this think-tank of modders and extremely dedicated JA2 fans they barely tapped in. Would've shaved weeks of development cycle. 

What I wouldn't like is for FC programmers and artists to stalk the forums and stay and chat instead of doing their job. Time is too precious now for long chats that are not focused on practical aspects.

---

On another note, did you guys know we have a sketch sector inventory? I discovered it by accident, I had like loot lying in a sector, went to recruit some guys and pressed that cog button under squad list. And poof... a text overlay with loot popped out from nowhere showing loot in sector... ha... talk about undocumented patch features.

The better the game is, the more copies they can sell. The more copies they sell, the more money they can make.

Rushing out a game what is looks half-done, with bugs and errors is a worse financial decision than spending more time on it and push the release date a couple months later.

There are other options too. Like starting a 2nd kickstarter, or asking a couple thousand dollars more on PayPal from the supporters.   :-)

They actually pitched the interruption system earlier (I think it wasn't yet implemented). The feedback was mixed, but a lot of people wrote that the interruption button is redundant and yet it still made it in the build. I don't know how that happened.

Also the hidden forums died off really quick, could have written formulas on designs for mechanics and described them and have the developer discussion open to us.(would have had us in the loop and able to share our feedback on them) (I know it takes time but they could have used the forum as a central tool for communication in the dev team). For instance, the whole right click to open menu and then choose how to shoot would have been avoided (not sure how it will come out in the end as it seems to be a hybrid of crosshair action and menu action). 

It's all smart talk in retrospect, but we would be in better position. I think there was too much designs that nobody ever wanted or asked for. For example, the +10 exp for killing enemies in battlefield is something that takes time to make, but nobody asked for or wanted that (as far as looking around in the forums). 

 

Yes, I noticed it. Looks more to a squad inventory for now. You can move an item from a merc to the squad inventory then give it to another merc. I haven't experimented much yet. I assume it could be persistent. As if the squad was using a vehicle, or a mule :-).

As for the debate, I have my concerns about the release date as others, but if FC has taken his decision, they have surely good reasons and better information about the real status of the dev than us.

Main priorities IMO for the release (some points may be already done or nearly completed) :

• a flawless turn based combat fully including stealth.
• a user friendly strategic UI including a sector inventory ala JA2, or at least a loot screen like Silent Storm Sentinels when exiting an area. 
•  recording of voices of new mercs and main NPCs
• a finished story 
• a quick save / named save system.
• Milestones 3 and 4 completed (sector upgrades and some attachements may be delayed and delivered as a later patch, IMO)

Hope it helps. 

@Tmib - I am sure they're considering all options. I would be, if it was my business to run.

I am pretty sure the deadline was set as much for press as for the team - to focus more on what they are doing. Let's hope we'll start to get results.

I also think its better when the devs now focus just on working not writing here in the forum but some informations about the actual status would be nice. They could have done it in the last update or here one time in the forum.

So than we would know whats still left to do and what the community wants the most. Sure that is not easy but only with this strategy we can tell the devs whats the most important stuff that must be in the game.

They tell us for example we work on the final 5 elements of the game and the community can choose the 2-3 elements that need the most love for the final build. The rest must be handled by the mod community if possible.

The problem is here are people who think what can be done to bring this game to the next level and they talk and think about stuff over and over again that maybe is still finished but not yet implemented.

When all just knew whats left to do maybe the community and the devs together can focus and put the money where its useful and necessary.

It seems that sometimes our ideas are not what FC wants, so they make their own things. It's ok, but it can backfire.

Will see if we can get a clearer message accross about what is to be expected for the final build...probably through another KS Update...will take some time to make though..will have a talk with Thomas about it this week. 

I like the idea of the community voting for certain features that they want in as opposed to others, however it would be limited to smaller features as there's still some biggies misisng on the list. Fully working strategic UI and Stats/Perks. 

If we were ever to make another Kickstarter I think a voting sstem would be perfect...eg. the community picks 10 feautes which all have a time estimate and a price tag. The 10 the community picks = The time of delivery from the start of the project and the price tags = the Kickstarter Goal. 

I guess stretch goals would then just add to the time of delivery and not the KS goal 

I think having seen Shadowrun Returns, the top of the list is simply a good engine (including the strategy layer, AI, UI, squad management).  SR was very thin on content - even a little underwhelming - but the Dragonfall expansion basically solved most of that and was a better story to boot.  If JAF is as good as SR without Dragonfall (but obviously JA-based, not RPG-based!), that will be in my opinion, 110% of target achieved - even though SR got mixed reviews on release, it had a way bigger budget.

I think in SR case people forgot it was a KS and Indie title. It was really polished by the time I started playing it (don't know if at release it was so polished) but really polished game equals less content, because new content=more testing time. I expect JAF to have some balancing and gameplay issues when it launches, because there are so many different mechanics and little details added to the game.
For instance, the gun play was never balanced in JA2, by the time of the third city small arms and shotguns were fairly useless. Later on some guns became easy to play with and some required good thinking to fit in (for instance I liked CAWS, but it was hard to make it useful and especially hard on ironman). In JAF I like how they have focused on solving the problem with small arms and it will be really interesting to see if the design choices will play out this way. But until we haven't seen the merc equipment and enemy equipment progression during the campaign, it is hard to say right now.
Also I have no idea what is their take on the number of enemies, so far there are a lot less enemies than there were in JA2 (except drassen). By the time you were assaulting the second city you were up against 20 enemies with your 6 mercs. And seeing there are enemies with more than 100 HP (disliking this) there maybe a chance that they are trying to balance to game with less enemies who are tougher than more enemies. Who knows? Haven't seen any word on this. 

I would have loved to see a dedicated group (e.g. alpha backers) to be able to vote. You could even collect more votes just for getting an image of what people want. Also, sometimes we don't know what is good for us. So the interruption-system could be good. If not, it was just a waste of time as some things in JA2 worked good enough. Maybe you should get a vote about the question, if people want another small KS to add several features (roof tops, moral bar/mechanics, death animations, better loading screens, cars and helicopter, buy own house and marryt to attract more newcomers :o)

And if only 500 of us would give 10$ you could dedicate time of a coder and animation specialist etc. to some of the feature as post release update. Better wallpapers would need a graphic designer which is easy to implement so the price tag should be lower. Nothing you have to do, just spinning my head to get all important features and less important in. 

Sounds like a good idea to me :)

Probably the team has a list of wanted features as long as the Great Wall. So prioritizing wouldn't be bad at all.

JAF can have another 30 € from me as long as it supports further/ longer development... I won't buy 3-4 copies of the game :PP I mean, ever tried to find a game like JA? I'm talking about a bunch of mercs crawling through the jungle to free a village or whatever from human hostiles? If you ask me, besides from some russian developers there isn't much in the barrel to choose from... Nowadays, it's either aliens, monsters or zombies and that's pissing me the hell off ^^ 

True Valo, there's been no worthy successor. I am on the same page with you, if FC can sort out the core features with the first release, I am all for going into a 2nd Kickstarter to get let's say 10 Best Features done. My personal list would be (in no particular order):

1. Multi-level maps & combat

2. Fully moddable UI

3. Weapon scavenging / expanded attachment system

4. Larger maps

5. In-combat vehicle control

6. Advanced inventory with dynamic ragdoll presentation

7. More v1.13 Flugente ideas (spying, disease, etc)

8. Water with diving and swimming

9.  More environment destructibles

10. A plugin system for modding all the parts that require paid licenses

And that's just of of the top my head. Also I am not 100% sure what the final release will bring, we might need to add to the 10 Best list some stuff I assume to be in the game and won't make it.

...

All beeing said, we must keep in mind that the owner of the IP is not Full Control, but bitComposer and there's probably a contract with some strict conditions to be met on release. First things first, JA:F as it is must not be a flop on release, otherwise bitComposer might look for another developer. Which imho would be a bad idea.

Clearly the focus now should be on the base game. All the above are things I can live without in the first release. Game stopping crashes, basic features like Interrupt that don't use a proper formula, UI that looks bad and functions 50%, weapons that don't work as they're supposed to work, those kind of things are way more important now.

@JAF Admin: Thanks for hopping into this discussion! Maybe we look a bit like the comic nerds in the simpsons asking Matt Groening strange stuff at comicon ;-).

@Multiplayer: So, for sure i am wrong here, but what is the main difference between a Player vs AI and a PvP-game in JA:F? In the basic game mechanics you have a Player doing actions with enemies around. The enemies are described by position, view cone, interruption mode, weapons, equipment and stats in the fighting system. So all you need is a server which calculates the inputs of Player1 into the game and gives interruptions to Player 2, if necessary. Something totally new to the game needed? The graphics and animations can be fully recycled and the fighting system accepts inputs from two players calculating a battle, like it does now. I mean, Shanga was allready controlling the bad guys ;-). What do else do you need besides a starting window to choose weapons and mercs? Modders would be all to glad to build PvP maps, wouldn´t they?

@financing: So, if you say to the community: you can spend 15€ to have the same game, but with rooftops and a more complex weapon/interruption/item system or you can spend 30€ to have a game to shoot your friends in a tranquil AP-based tactic game online, i guess strongly option two is more appealing to more player = more money. The main idea is that the multiplayer comes with new features to allow for a nice tactical game play (interruptions 2.0 with optical devices for example) and rooftops. So the calculation needs to be: 50% for the multiplayer and 25% rooftops and 10% interruptions 2.0 and so on. Afterwards you create a new campaign and sell it for another 15€ together with the features financed by the Kickstarter and the monthly fees for the multiplayer. So it would be possible to finance little by little the features. Actually that was the suggestion of my collegue focussed on pricing in the games sector.

The other way around it will be hard to convince a crowd big enough to finance something really bringing the game forward.

@modding: Or option 10, like Shanga said: we discuss what could be opened to modders and the community goes on with some stuff. My question about the moddability of the game in another thread looked a bit to early to the commentors, but i still believe this could be partly a solution. A more complex interruption system might be totally possible, because it can be calculated with existing numbers in the fighting system, but there is no time left to roll it out and balance that. Something like that could be opened, if that is possible from the code side of the game. Or AI for example: i would love to tune the rules my little killing bots follow until no one can compete with them.

I can't help my myself but what were the expectations from the beginning? For me? Everything that JA2 had just with a better useability and actual graphics.

I know game development isn't easy and expensive but why can nobody handle that? 

This game is nearly 15 years old.

And also just like in BIA now we have features that maybe nobody really needed. It looks like its getting the same way like BIA.

I like the weather system and I like the day and night circles but aren't things like combat and strategic layer UI/economy and generally UI functions and animated portraits, voice acting more important and must work great before we bringt stuff like that plus exp indications on the screen (that exp info kills the immersion)?

Shouldn't be the priority to get on a level with JA2? Not to experiment with stuff that is already working great in JA2 (new interupt system). 

Every fan of JA2 on earth just wants a new JA that is just like JA2 only with better graphics and better useability. And for selling that are many many people so there is no need to make something new or to experiment.

I can understand that FC whats to make their own thing and wants to get their own soul in that game that is absolutely ok and good but why break mechanics that work? Even wanted mechanics by the fans. Nobody asked for that.

What all the fans wanted is the greatness from JA2 nothing new. So why can nobody handle that. I don't get it.

I don't want to say that FC does a bad job. No. They are passioned and they work hard but what I criticize is that there is too less transparency about the project and why the game can't be closer to JA2 in every aspect. No one would criticize FC for making JAF like JA2 so why try new stuff when its so hard to get on the same level?

Since weather and day/night cycle are purely visual for now and have no effect on gameplay (as far as I can tell), it doesn't take much time to program. Kind of makes sense from marketing stand point to include eye-candy early on, especially when it's easy and doesn't break anything.

As for experience indicators, maybe it's just a placeholder for now. Same for damage indicatior. It looks ugly, but it shows what's happening calculation wise. 

Just like Shadow86 mentioned, it's unbelievable that the developers can't seem to be able to match a 15 year old game. JA 2: Vanilla version has much more content, immersions, dialogues, details than JA: Flashback. JA2 was also developed by a rather small and inexperienced development team. It really surprises me that we can't match it, considering that FC has all the original content of all previous JA games. Today's games are much richer in content, details and mechanics than the original JA2.

I would say don't fix mechanics which aren't broken. We didn't ask for a new interrupt system or a new XP system. Most of us wanted a game similar to JA2 but then in another setting with upgraded graphics.

With just 1,5 month of development time ahead, I can't see the game becoming a success. This game has potential, but needs at least 6 months of additional development time to become decent. Now it's broken, missing content, dialogues, and has no soul. I miss the dialogues, MERC engagement, details etc. There is insufficient time to add the missing content and to properly test the game.

I would suggest to start another Kickstarter campaign or get additional funds from BitComposer to create a worthy game. A bad release would definitely hurt the IP and the reputation of FC.

Last time, you managed to collect over 350K while having nothing to show for. I believe that is pretty impressive. Also, the promotion was poor, even myself (a huge JA fan) wasn't aware of the campaign until very late. Now, with all the material you have to show for, I believe that many more fans can be reached and they will be much more convinced to pledge additional funds.

sadly i am on the same boat with shadow and scope.

With all respect, i don´t agree. I don´t want a JA:2 copy and i don´t think there is a sufficiently big market for JA:2². It doesn´t make to much sense to discuss the JA:2 features, because you will have a different opinion (interruption system was to simple, weapon system disbalanced leaving no use for smaller arms, enemies were crazy suicide gun slinger retards). Long story short: it´s not that clear what the devs should have done. For me for example it´s on the contrary, the modernisation of the game mechanics looks underdeveloped.

And if you calculate it through: 370.000$ is 285.000€ which is around 2,5 years of work for a single person, or half a year for 5 persons (!). They will have put a lot of own money into that project. With the necessities of modern game production (creating tons of 3D-objects, etc.), this is simply nothing.

Another kickstarter needs a core argument why anyone should spend money on it. The 50 ultra enthusiasts in this foum won´t be able to spend 1.000€ each, and 50.000 is allredy little. How do you convince 10.000 backers to put 10-80€ in the project? Not with telling them: we want our old game back, but with better graphics!

So once again, with all respect i simply got a totally different opinion on that.

"interruption system was to simple"

Actually, that's why I liked it. :) 

"weapon system disbalanced leaving no use for smaller arms"

In reality, there is a saying, "A handgun is for shooting your way to your rifle..."

And it's true, that's why the handguns are called "side arms" or "secondary arms". Rifles are more effective, the penetration, the range, they are just more superiors compared to handguns.

"enemies were crazy suicide gun slinger retards"

I disagree. Maybe some of them ran towards, however if you played JA2 on hard mode, that's a real challange. 

"370.000$ is 285.000€ which is around 2,5 years of work for a single person"

An average person in Denmark makes about the same money as the Governor of New York state? 

Replicating the systems in JA2 on another engine could sound easy only if you never programmed a line of code in your life. Especially when you consider that JA2 had no "engine" per se, while Unity is an engine with API and specific set of instructions and limits.

To give you a better comparrison, it's like if I give you a box of parts from a modern kit car and a picture of a Ford T1 and demand you make the Ford. Cause you got the parts right? It has an engine and 4 wheels, right? Easy, get on it, they made that thing decades ago with a screwdriver and hammer, you should be ready in no time...

...

Speaking of systems that don't feel like JA2, interrupts for example. If I was to code those in, I would take the same path. Aka - first make a manual system to test they work - see if AI reacts as expected when interrupt is triggered, etc.

Then when I am satisfied, come in an code in the conditions to make all this automatic. 

Again, the functions in JA2 and not the functions in Unity, people. You don't copy&paste code from one source code from the other. I am very sure the FC  coders know very well the source code of JA2 and how interrupts work there, but to get to there it's a step-by-step process otherwise you create a mess.

..

Would they have time to take those barebones systems they added in and develop them into fully-fledged systems by October? That's anyone's guess and you can bet they're working like they never worked before to do it.

"370.000$ is 285.000€ which is around 2,5 years of work for a single person" An average person in Denmark makes about the same money as the Governor of New York state in one year? Bold remarks say: nope. Gross labour costs are around double the gross wage, if the devs want stupid stuff like health insurance and maybe they are even paying taxes? Long story short: Budget was small. That was clear all the time.

@shanga: i loved your metaphor! Implictly some statements could be read as: devs were wasting money/time. I don´t like that.

@Maddog - agreed, anyone who does a simple math on an average salary of $1000 / month (double with taxes) can see the budget from KS was tiny. FC sunk a lot of their own money into JA:F and they're the last ones that want it to be a flop.

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On a more positive note, these guys proved time and time again that while they're slow to start (KS campaign was an abysmal example), their finish is awesome. Must be something in that Danish beer that kicks on on a delayed fuse. That being said, can't wait for next update...

Friend of mine working for crytech told me the nice camp bed stories from the good old times in small independent studios, when they didn´t leave the office for the last weeks, sleeping in the corridor and living from Pizza and Red Bull.

The small budget tells us, that there is a lot of own money in the project and due to that they will work like hell.

@Maddog: You are right no the game mustn't be a copy of JA2, but it should be nearly on the same level in terms of immersion, gameplay, portraits, voiceacting, atmosphere just in a different way. But the game is too unfinished right now. I would say when AI, strategic layer UI, generally the UI, the new combat would work great and everything feels polished and there are just more mercs, sectors, quests and so on to finish no one would criticize.

Right now we can only hope the final build can deliver than everything is fine. But my hopes where in the last update and there was too less progress.

Maybe a kickstarter for an addon is a possibility that advances the basis game a lot. And yes the basic game must be great at least in its core elements. The rest can be done by the modding community and the addon.

I thought about this often. FC wanted to develop a game that is better than JA2 (cover, hearing, view cone) and then for my taste tried to accomplish too many goals in this short time. With a big budget, no one would have said a word. But with this tight budget, more focusing on what is REALLY broken and not fixing, which could be fixed. This is my view now but FC can convince me for a better.

As mentioned, they work their "=!/§ off and they took own money, this needs to be a success, for them. The question will always be, could we helped more, cried louder? No we discussed a complicated interruption system that would have been more complicated that what we'll now get. One of us should have said (some of us did) just let the interruption system be, do it in an add-on - test it in a beta. First find the soul of JA2 and make everything happen like in JA. After month of development we don't have a burst mode, with proper animation, it is a shame. Critic will help FC only after the project, so I stop here. 

But I still like a discussion on what are optional goals (like death animations) and which will be in. For me limbing can be dropped as long as we get death animation. Rooftops we will not see this round, which if fine and was expected. But we have to find these feature, test it and iterate on them, which are core or soul, like the animated portraits. Please FC, tell us how we can help you.

Otherwise we are filling this thread with pointless discussions (which are sometimes fun). Let us support this project to the last turn and then hopefully begin another round next year =)

As sad as it is to realize, there will never be another game "just like" Jagged Alliance.

Simple fact #1. Too much time has passed since the Jagged Alliance chapter. People change, their ideas change, influenced by other games and such. I bet even if you got the original team together, and compared what their vision for JA3 was then and now, over 15 years later, it would likely be night and day.

Simple fact #2. People like different things, while you might agree on certain elements, you will NEVER have 100% satisfaction. There will always be dissent. Just human nature. Most you can hope for, is to have as much common as possible.

The only way to have something done EXACTLY the way you want is to do it yourself. The problem with that, especially when it comes to making a game, is as fun as it is making it, you will never have as much fun playing it simply because you know every single bit and byte of that world.

If they'd simply remake JA2 on Unity3D, honestly, I wouldn't care to play JA:F.  And it wouldn't be a game, it would be simply called a port. 

View cones were also in JA (UB). So that's a feature they actually remade and improved.

Weather is a v1.13 feature.

There's hardly anything you could point a finger at and say "well, they spent too much time on that, that's why we don't get this".

..

As for what we can do, is what we did so far. Test as much as we can, report bugs, point out what's out of whack. And if time comes for another KS, join in and get a friend or two. Until then, stay positive, the devs are human too and the last thing they need is a crowd of angry natives waving pitchforks outside the gates.

Yea we all don't know whats the actual status and whats maybe possible in the future. I guess the devs now know or at least can read here what the fans want and expect from the final build so until the next update or the final build we should stay positive and hope for the best. ;-)

The interruption system works as it was stated by FC, there is nothing wrong with it. Except, people though it would be better version of JA2 interruption system. The systems are completely different. 

And regardless if they change it or not, only thing I am interested is the logical explanation why did they choose this system. Right now they are busy, but after the release I would really like to know what was going on.

And I agree that different people have different opinion on certain things, but there are somethings that have been getting similar feedback and should be looked at again.

When I played the last version, the AI bugged me, interruption system bugged me and the horrible +10exp and bleeding -1 things bothered me. The bugs will be ironed out and the AI will be implemented and hopefully those nasty +10 exp stuff dissapears, but other than that it's pretty playable and if we as a community can keep the game alive and FC will be interested in the future, will have something really great. Final push FC! you can do it! 

I dislike their design of interrupt or overwatch system, but I understand their desire behind wanting to keep handguns viable until end game. IMO, when someone is on "overwatch", their finger is on the trigger and eye on the target. As soon as an enemy shows up, one takes a shot. Doesn't matter if you have a handgun or an RPG. You see, you shoot. So in that aspect, I think 1.13 with multiple interrupt is a better fit in turn-based combat.

First, I expected them to rebuild a JA2 with some feature of 1.13. That means priority is on a solid JA2 and then get the best of JA UB and 1.13 with a special touch (graphic) of FC. 

We agree on that. But I think some things will not be in or at least not polished enough on release. No prob for me, as long as I know the project will go on, they will support it in any way possible. Even JA2 was buggy after release (also the demo was so great).

Also there a some design choices that don't fit the series:

see hotfix:

One of the features we wanted (repeated that often) was to be able to " compare[...] values to currently equipped Weapon". 

Nice! thx.

Crosshair now turns to X when not enough AP available to attack

Due to being a beta tester, I just dislike the X as I want to see the crosshair ALL the time. I need to shoot impossible shots. With no APs left, I see a crosshair and just can't fire. That is ok.

We talked about implementing the pulsating, circle with sounds effects etc. like JA2 had. Another feature was - if you can shoot but it makes no sense or you don't have any APs left, the cursor pulsated to grey colors and a sound effect warned you. Just use the same sound an mechanics as in JA2 (you have the rights) and do it exactly. Even in such little things you can just give the fans what they expect from a series title. The same voice of an actor. The voice of the guns here is the crosshair. And they changed (after feedback from community) also the end turn sound effect. It is better but doesn't sound like JA2. Can I replace it by myself? Or will you just change it back to what is was in JA series. It is like star wars and you change the sound of the laser pistol. It's always a bad move =)

Please change it. I will also remind on how the crosshair should be implemented to recognize the JA series in the hotfix thread.

I don't know, but I think alot people actually do want a modernized version of JA2. Better graphics and a new campaign and that's pretty much it. And preferably open-source so people can keep improving the game. Maybe FC should have just used JA2 v1.13 as a base and put their efforts into modernizing the graphics and developing a new campaign.

If you have a) very TIGHT budget and b) VERY short development time, then you should be less ambitious in your approach. Don't try to reinvent core game features which worked perfectly fine. I don't mind if FC would try to modernize game mechanics if they had a longer development time and additional resources, but at this moment it's not a smart choice. 

The current build does not even have AI, Strategic Layer, no NPC dialogues, no MERC interaction, no soul and immersion etc. Also, the game is full of game breaking bugs. And we are just 1,5 month away from release...... Yes Shanga I might not be into coding, but I do know a bit about making products, testing, benchmarking and so on. Based on my experience and knowhow FC needs a miracle to pull this off. I don't see it happening, but I hope to be pleasantly surprised.

I appreciate FC's enthusiasm for this game and I do feel that Thomas Lund is a true fan of the original games. However, based on the overall project management for this game; it just lacks vision. FC started the kickstarter campaign with absolutely nothing to show for. How could you ever expect people to back huge funds? Especially in a game as Jagged Alliance where fans have been deceived/disappointed for over 10 years. I would say now with all the progress that has been made (game looks very promising) and the increased awareness, a second kickstarter campaign can bring in the funds necessary to add a few months of needed development time.

What I am saying is they didn't reinvent core game features as you say. It's just the engine changed. And when you code on a different engine, you have to write new code. You can't just copy&paste. Telling a soldier to go from A to B is done in a way in JA, in another way in JA2 and in a completely different way in JA:F.

I agree with you - and I think FC does too - that the game is not in any form releasable as it presents itself now. The new features are just bare bones - take sector inventory for example, that's just text popping out on screen. But they're there and beeing worked on.

I don't have a crystal globe and can't say if the game will be in a decent state next month. I wish I was able to help more than beta-test. But on the other hand I'd take any day a studio like FC - that actually listen to what the community says, over a company that would simply ignore us and just build a game like they fancy. Coreplay didn't even listen to the bitComposer producers when they made BIA, they "knew better" and produced a game that looked shiny and only remotely resembled JA2. Slow and sluggish as they might be, FC are delivering.

The second Kickstarter might and might not be a good idea. Actually, the second Kickstarter would be a good idea ONLY if the base game does on release. Because Kickstarters are all about promise and good faith. If the game gets negative feedback, then KS will fail too.

I am in no form chanting the fanboy song now and saying "but look, for me JA:F is superb now, you all naysayers are just mean mean people". Nope, I am just trying to tell people to judge the game when it's ready to be judged and let the devs do they work in peace. If they fail to deliver there will be no clapping from me, either, trust me.

Shanga, I am glad you still have faith and you are paying much more attention to releases than I can afford at the moment.  So if you are sticking by them, that gives me a lot of reassurance.

However, our worries stem from the fact that there is so much left to be done at quite a core level that cannot physically be completed (and then tested, bug-fixed, and balanced) at the current pace of releases we are currently seeing.  This is not the first beta I've been in, and some previous games were in much more advanced states than this and still ended up bombing on launch because there were so many things left to fix.  Releasing a game that should still be in beta is also much more terrible for a current game than it used to be in the past, because news travels around so much more quickly and the Internet is merciless.  Every game needs some sort of iterative phase where the whole is already there and there's a period of adjusting it.  What is clear is that JAF won't have that privilege.

About a second KS, I don't think that's even a realistic option and I don't think FC would want to do that.  You'd need to add a very compelling reason for a second one to generate any significant buzz, and I don't see what that could be.  KS is also pretty much dead these days with mostly terrible titles being proposed.

Btw... very interesting read:

http://www.pcgamer.com/2014/09/12/elite-dangerous-crowdfunding-covered-less-than-one-quarter-of-its-total-cost-creator-says/

How far will $2.6 million will take you to make a game with all bells and whistles? Here's the answer. Not very far.

Also, all this considering, Google their prices for Alpha and Beta access (on top of game price tag), you'll drop your jaw and might never find it on the floor.

Yes, the budget of FC's game is tiny. I'm also in Star Citizen and the money there is crazy.  And I've actually got back all my money on that game by selling limited edition stuff on the grey market.  

I agree FC are between a rock and a hard place.  But given that they were even considering taking a loan out to cover the shortfall prior to the successful KS, and that they've also continued to have PayPal and Early Access and some funds supposedly from SpaceHulk, I'd have thought they might be more flexible with their timeline.  The question is, will the extra month earlier than the Christmas/Black Friday rush of game releases help more than potentially negative reviews that come for an incomplete game will hurt?  I think that's the main question FC have to ask themselves, and that only they can answer.

The game will never compete with AAA games, because it is a indie game. Indie games get positive feedback when they create a buzz, a broken and bugged filled game won't do that. So my guess is that the more polished it is at launch the more succesful it is. The gameplay is already moving towards something nice, there are some features new and there are some missing compared to JA2, but that's okay if the game works nice. The original JA had less features than JA2, but I love that game even playing it lately. 

Speaking of funding, I think it was a bad call to close the shop. Instead they should've kept it open and populate it with skins and other non-gamebreaking items. SC kept the shop open and doubled their cash selling ships and paintings for the ship cabin and God knows what. Their crowdfunding campaign is atm writting the book on how to do it.

As for JA:F I agree, since it's an indie game, small scale and good fun can be enough to make it good. And they need to open it up more to modding as first priority post-launch. Their biggest selling point for JA:F won't be "this the the long awaited spit-and-polish JA3". Their biggest selling point for JA:F should be "we made you the best 3d JA3 modding kit you ever dreamed of - its up to you now to create it".